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CEimpact Podcast
The CEimpact Podcast features two shows - GameChangers and Precept2Practice!
The GameChangers Clinical Conversations podcast, hosted by Josh Kinsey, features the latest game-changing pharmacotherapy advances impacting patient care. New episodes arrive every Monday. Pharmacist By Design™ subscribers can earn CE credit for each episode.
The Precept2Practice podcast, hosted by Kathy Scott, features information and resources for preceptors of students and residents. New episodes arrive on the third Wednesday of every month. Preceptor By Design™ subscribers can earn CE credit for each episode.
To support our shows, give us a follow and check back each week for our latest episodes.
CEimpact Podcast
Helping Student Pharmacists and Residents Master Writing Skills
Are your student pharmacists or residents struggling with written communication? Join us for a candid conversation with experienced preceptor and former residency director Josh Kinsey, who shares creative, practical strategies to help pharmacy learners enhance their writing—from grammar and spelling to professional documentation and literature analysis. Discover tools, activities, and tips to foster these critical skills while balancing the demands of busy rotations. Tune in and gain insights that will empower you and your learners to succeed!
HOST
Kathy Schott, PhD
Vice President, Education & Operations
CEimpact
GUEST
Joshua David Kinsey, PharmD
Vice President, Education
CEimpact
Get CE: CLICK HERE TO CPE CREDIT FOR THE COURSE!
CPE Information
Learning Objectives
At the end of this course, preceptors will be able to:
1. Identify common barriers that hinder student pharmacists writing development
2. Describe innovative and structured approaches to teach foundational and professional writing skills as part of experiential learning
0.075 CEU/0.75 Hr
UAN: 0107-0000-25-044-H99-P
Initial release date: 1/29/2025
Expiration date: 1/29/2028
Additional CPE details can be found here.
The speakers have no relevant financial relationships with ineligible companies to disclose.
This program has been:
Approved by the Minnesota Board of Pharmacy as education for Minnesota pharmacy preceptors.
Reviewed by the Texas Consortium on Experiential Programs and has been designated as preceptor education and training for Texas preceptors.
Welcome back to Preceptive Practice, where we dive into the latest ideas shaping pharmacy precepting. I'm your host, Kathy Schott, with CE Impact. In this episode, I'm joined by my colleague, Josh Kinsey, who has served in many roles before joining CE Impact. Formerly an independent community pharmacy owner, he also served as an assistant professor and community pharmacy residency director at Mercer University. It's no secret that student pharmacists and residents do not always excel at written communication, whether we're talking about daily communication via email or text, or more complex communication skills like making evidence-based recommendations or patient documentation. In this candid conversation, Josh shares creative, practical strategies to help pharmacy learners enhance their writing, from grammar and spelling to professional documentation and literature analysis. We explore tools, activities and tips to foster these critical skills while balancing the demands of busy rotations. Let's listen in Well. Welcome, Josh. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 1:I have to make a little joke of long time no see, since we work together.
Speaker 2:But in all fairness, we haven't seen each other in a couple of days.
Speaker 1:Well, that's true, that's true. Yeah, so how are you doing? I'm good. Well, I'm really. Yeah, I'm super grateful that you're willing to have this conversation with me, and it was interesting because, you know, I put out a call for preceptors, who maybe have some experience in developing written communication skills in their students and residents, and no one raised their hand. So I think that tells me that this is a topic that folks need support in.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm really grateful that I could you know. If no one else will do it, mikey will do it, and people who are my age will understand the joke that Mikey will do it. So thanks for being Mikey.
Speaker 2:I even remember that joke, maybe Okay.
Speaker 1:All right, well, thanks for being Mikey. Let's just start by having you share a little bit about your background and your experience as a preceptor. I know you've been at CE Impact now for a few years, but did a lot of precepting prior to that, so share with us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Sure, so just quickly, my background is in. I was an independent pharmacy owner for several years in North Georgia and I did take some students on rotation. While in that setting is first and foremost, that was kind of my introduction to precepting. And then, when I sold my store, I transitioned into a corporate grocery store chain, took more students there because that was more in the Atlanta area and so that was closer to school and then joined faculty at Mercer University College of Pharmacy there in Atlanta, georgia, in 2015.
Speaker 2:And not only did I, of course, teach 2015. And not only did I of course teach and so it's obviously very similar to precepting but I also was the director of our community pharmacy residency program, and so I was able to be, you know, not only the director of the program but also precept those residents throughout. So I had, I think, about 18 or so residents in my time at Mercer. But then also the other interesting part of it is in that role as the director of the residency program I also was very involved with all of the preceptors at those sites.
Speaker 2:And so I got to kind of see some of the struggles that they were having as a preceptor and be able to try to help them identify ways in which they could overcome those issues or, you know, strategies to to right the ship in whatever way was going wrong. So it's kind of a different perspective in that as well, as I didn't necessarily precept residents at practice sites, but I was involved with, you know, making sure that their preceptors were offering the best to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, mentoring the preceptors themselves.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome, that's awesome. I'm particularly glad to have you talk with me about this topic because, you know, I think the challenge isn't just with students. You know, in this area, in this area, A lot of our graduates who go on to be residents also have some struggles in demonstrating those strong written communication skills. And I know I don't have to tell you why does this topic matter? Right, Our students and residents are trying to communicate health effectively with patients, with other members of the healthcare team, documentation of patient care activities, maybe preparing their own professional materials like presentations and publications and things like that, and even advocating for themselves both, you know, personally and professionally.
Speaker 2:So I'm sure you can Right trying to climb any sort of corporate ladder or anything. Like you know, written communication skills are important in any way that you're trying to better your career or change your career path potentially, or something like that. So yeah, there's it. It goes further than just the student doesn't have the skill, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Right, right, a hundred percent, yeah, yeah, great point. Well, it seems that more and more preceptors, faculty and even employers are lamenting the writing skills of students or new graduates. So you know, is this, do you think this is a real issue or an imagined one? And if you think it's real, what do you believe are the contributing factors to that issue?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I do, unfortunately. I do think it's real. I do think that there is some substance there. Just in my experience with I forgot to also mention that.
Speaker 2:You know we precept students that see impact as well you know we've had students come through our rotation, so I do have experience. Just recently, but my experience in when I was on faculty, you know, we did start seeing a decline and we did start seeing students that were entering into pharmacy school with poor written communication skills, and I think there's a lot of factors that go into it. I don't think that it's one particular thing. Some of the things that I feel like I noticed as being contributors is just well.
Speaker 2:Specifically, once we get them in pharmacy school, that's not really what we're focused on, unfortunately. We're focused on getting them up to date with clinical knowledge and with those hands-on skills that are needed in point of care, testing and immunization and things like that. We're not really focused on teaching them how to write because we kind of expect that they already know how to do that. So unfortunately, that's part of it is that it's not something that we're teaching in pharmacy school. I think another thing you know and I'm guilty of this too and I've tried to be very careful with it even as, of late, texting and social media platforms, you know we, we do abbreviations and we do slang and we do, you know, like quick responses and they're not full sentences and they're not punctuated and they're not capitalized, and you know, I think that also is a part of it too, and that a lot of these students like.
Speaker 2:That's how they grew up, you know like that's how they were trained and the education that they received. A lot of it was on an online platform, and so I feel like that has kind of led to some of the decline as well. And then, you know, we can get into this greater in detail, but I, kind of stemming off the fact that we don't teach this in school, I also think that it's not really something that we're giving a lot of feedback on in rotations. You know, like we're trying to make sure again, that they have the clinical knowledge and that they can hold their own with you know, recommendations and whatever, and we're sometimes maybe we're not focusing on giving the feedback necessary that says this is not up to par. This writing does not is not professional. You're not. This is not something that a physician is going to read and accept because it sounds like it's coming from a fifth grader you know.
Speaker 1:So I think that that could also be part of the contributing factor as well. Fours you know there's kind of two, two, two areas. I guess you know really foundational kinds of things, but then also you know some some of that kind of written communication that elevates to sort of the professional communication.
Speaker 2:You know space yeah, um, I think some of the foundational ones are, and I think it again, it's that whole, whole growing up with the, I guess, technology that they have. But it blows my mind sometimes I would see grammar and spelling errors and I'm like there are checks for that.
Speaker 2:Right, I don't understand why you're not correcting them when they shine red or when they're highlighted. So those kind of things I I think are some foundational issues. Maybe it's just uh, they're rushing, they're not, they're not paying attention to the details of oh, it's telling me that this is a grammar issue. Let me do a right click and see what this is telling me. I should add here a comma or a semicolon or whatever. So little things like that, I think you know, maybe just effort or lack of lack of paying attention to the details.
Speaker 2:And also one of the things that I really noticed was and again, I never prided myself on being like the most proficient writer, like that's never. I was never great with composition and pharmacies or in undergrad or anything like that, but I do feel like I had a very good process of organizing my thoughts and making them flow, and if I talked about this, I had a lead in for it, and then I, you know, then I had a segue to go to the next topic and it made sense. I felt like some of the writing is very disjointed and you're like where's the connection there?
Speaker 2:You just you just jumped topics and you didn't make a connection, you didn't show how it fed back through or tie you know there was no tie through. So I think some of that is some of the foundational issues. It's just poor organization of thoughts yeah.
Speaker 2:Maybe they're not writing an outline first, you know, which can kind of help with some of that Right and so that therefore it makes their messaging, you know, really hard to follow because you're like what, how did we get here? What are we talking about, right? So I think those are some of the foundational ones that I that I kind of noticed or experienced.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, what you know. Obviously those challenges present those, those issues present challenges for the preceptor, because you've already described some of those, but you know what are, what are the impact, what's the impact on the learner themselves when you know, when they're struggling with these, with these kinds of skills?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, I think that I think what they don't realize is because they're not proficient, in that it actually is taking them longer to do things, or because they didn't take time to do an outline, it actually made it harder to write. Whatever it is they're doing, sometimes without the feedback from the preceptor or from the professor or from the mentor or whomever. They don't fully realize that they're doing something wrong or that they're not, that they're not following through with something. You know, there are times that I remember with my residents. You know I would get their research papers was really where I would first see it, and I would always ask for a first draft, and you know that kind of thing early on in the process.
Speaker 2:And, um, I, the very first time I would do a pass of it. I would not mark it up at all and I would just send it back and say take more time. Like it's, it's not up to par. You figure out what it is. I've noticed that is not accurate and it would. It would force them to take more time to dig through and to not just rush through to like meet a deadline, but to really focus on it. And then the second draft I would get out my red pen and go to town on the paper.
Speaker 2:And then I would also always schedule instead of just sending it back to them all marked up, I would schedule time with them in person to sit down and go through and say this is why I marked it this way. This doesn't make sense. This you need a segue here because, again, sometimes if they really don't, if they are missing those foundational concepts, then you saying put a segue here. They're not, they're not going to know what that means.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they don't understand what you mean by that, or what a good one would be. So I would always schedule in-person time with them to kind of go over my feedback, so that it wasn't just them opening up a document that had a hundred red marks and then they get frustrated and close it and not look at it again. You know Right.
Speaker 2:So I think that was really important too is to to give, to make time and give them, I guess, force them to sit with you and and go through it, as opposed to just being like let me know if you have any questions, you know when I mark it up. So and I realized I didn't talk about some of those advanced issues. I really kind of focused on the foundational ones but, some of the advanced ones.
Speaker 2:You know, I think a lot of it is also not fully understanding the difference between primary and secondary literature and really understanding how to use stuff and not plagiarize and also make sure you're citing appropriately and I think think a lot of that is is a struggle for for students, and I can't I can only imagine that that's going to get worse with AI, unfortunately, and how that they're not even going to be citing anything and just assuming that what they're writing is is the gospel truth. I fear that that's in our future and is not going to get any better, unfortunately. I do think that that's in our future and it's not going to get any better, unfortunately. I do think that that's. Another issue is just in general. You know, we would one of the first courses that our students took initially I think the curriculum has changed now at Mercer but it was understanding literature and like how to research. What is the difference between? You know?
Speaker 2:these things and how do you research? What is the difference between you know these things and how do you cite, and what does that mean to cite? And I think it really was important as a foundational skill, even though it's an advanced skill, to really kind of make it sure everybody was on the same playing field so that when I did give feedback in the classroom on certain things, they at least knew the terminology and knew what I was talking about.
Speaker 1:So right, Right, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, even in my PhD program, you know, I went into that thinking I was a pretty decent writer. But I came out and because I got really good feedback, I think part of you know part of it, but a huge part of I mean a huge part of that was, you know synthesizing.
Speaker 1:you know I mean, a huge part of that was you know synthesizing you know the literature and you know being able to to, you know write in a way that you know wasn't so linear but but you know was a true synthesis of, of. You know that the research or the, or the data, and you know I just remember classmates at all levels, you know really struggling with that concept, so it's easy to see why that is challenging for new graduates.
Speaker 2:For sure.
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk first about improving the foundational skills like grammar, spelling, clarity. We'll kind of start with some of the simpler stuff. How have you approached teaching skills like that and how do you sort of set the tone for that expectation, you know? In your experiences with learners.
Speaker 2:I think you know, like I said, one of the first things I would do is is turn it back to them and say take more time. So I think that was. I think that's a big one is again a rush. We all do it.
Speaker 2:Nobody has the best time management skills, especially when you're in a residency program or when you're in pharmacy school and you're trying to balance so many different things.
Speaker 2:And as much as we try to plan ahead, we often wait until the last minute to do something that's got a deadline.
Speaker 2:And you know, unfortunately, a major research project is not something you want to wait to the last minute to do because it needs a lot of synthesis along the way, and so that was again one of the first things that I would do is say, okay, thanks for meeting the deadline, now go back and take another week and really like reread it, proofread it, go through it you know fine tooth comb and see what you can make better. So I think that was something, as I mentioned to the. I guess you could have called it a structured writing workshop. When I met with them, you know one-on-one, because it was more than just me saying this is wrong and you need to add this here it was kind of like we would brainstorm and say how could we make this better? This, I don't know what you're trying to say in this paragraph. Can you tell me what you're trying to say and then I can help you, maybe formulate a few sentences to get you started.
Speaker 2:That makes that a better, you know, transition or something I had, I guess, informal workshops basically. So I think that's something that preceptors could do is schedule time and actually have a writing workshop, you know, with their students and really kind of utilize. You have to do it in a careful way, but utilize their material as like the bad examples and say like, okay, how can we fix this?
Speaker 2:You know, and you know it's easy to kind of do that one-on-one for sure, and if you're doing it in a group, you want to just be sure that you're, you know, making sure that nobody's work is the one that you're picking on every time or something, or that people don't know whose work is being picked on for wrong answers or whatever, or for wrong style. And then I think I had a few colleagues that would turn it into like a almost like a gamification type thing, and so they would turn into like a competitive exercise where they you would take turns proofing like other students or other residents work and you try to identify the errors and the more you find, the more points you get. Becomes the the comma queen or whatever. Right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, there's ways to kind of, I guess, utilize peers. I guess is what I'm getting at. So that you know you can help each other and also see how others are writing and realize I think that that also might assist in being like oh, my writing is really not up to par because my fellow classmate is really good at this, you know, and I think sometimes some of that is motivation to to better yourself in that respect so yeah, well, and also maybe make it a little less threatening too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, Exactly yeah. Because, again, we have all been in that space as professionals who have submitted writing for you know an article or journal or whatever, and you it doesn't matter if 90% of it is nice you hate to get the feedback from the peer reviewer because you feel strongly about what you've written and you think they're wrong, and you know. And it's the same thing as when you give it back to a student. If all you do is just hand it and say, here are the errors, fix it. That's a negative receipt, Like it. Just right. Just, the student is probably not going to have a great experience with that. But again, if you do something that engages them or have the one-on-one time or walk through it with them, I think it's just more important than being like, hey, here's your red line document and figure out how to fix it. You know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and the added benefit of practicing giving feedback too, right, so?
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so it's it is also putting you know more gems in your crown as a preceptor, because you're you're getting better at doing that and you're more engaging with the student and they're also going to respect that more and just an all around win.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Are there any specific tools or resources that you could recommend to preceptors to require of their learners? You know there's a there's a lot of resources out there now and it's amazing to me how many people don't necessarily use, like yeah. Grammarly or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that would be my first is some of the grammar tools that are out there, and I think Grammarly is probably one of the most popular ones. It's AI driven, so I don't think people realize that we've been using AI for years and years. I mean even Word document, word spell checks and whatever. That's AI, because it's telling you what a structure should be and what a sentence should you know, whatever. So that's a whole different topic and not everything about AI is that, so we can save that for another time. But yeah, I definitely would say a grammar tool like Grammarly or there are others out there. I think there are some that integrate with other writing tools and they're really helpful. I mean, grammarly is, if you do the simple payment one on it, like it'll tell you how to restructure an entire paragraph, like it's just it's wild sometimes.
Speaker 2:And I don't always agree with it, but at least it gives me an idea, and be like okay, well, maybe this isn't the best way to write this, let me think of a different way. So that's one I would say. I think there are a lot of online resources as well. One that we used to use I can't remember, I think it was called, I think it was Purdue, um, and it was called owl, purdue owl.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay, I still, I still go there sometimes, so that's one that I think is an excellent resource.
Speaker 2:Um it's really good for um citation. I think too. And then um and there are.
Speaker 2:There are a lot of getting on that, you know, cause that was one of the things I mentioned. That I think students struggle with is learners in general struggle with is proper citations and understanding. You know the synthesis of the, of the research and information, and there's so many tools out there that does that too. You know that will, that will do it for you, and now AI can generate whatever form of a citation you need and whatever format you want it. So that's something to do and then you know, there, I think just general searches can help you find templates for a lot of things that are also beneficial. I had templates in kind of my residency portfolio for the residents, templates on like soap notes and pharmacist patient care process feedback or care plans, and I think it's sometimes seeing those as a guide is also really helpful to be like oh, that's how I can say that or that's what should be in that section, not this janky little sentence that I created. It needs to be two strong sentences that tell the objective. You know, like whatever.
Speaker 2:I think that that is. The templates were also really useful and, you know, if you can't find the ones you like, then create some for your own rotation learning experience. So yeah, and then I think there are plenty of other documentation, guidelines and stuff like that that are out there that are also pharmacy specific too. So yeah, yeah, definitely a lot of resources, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so finding some of those and having them in the tool, in the toolkit.
Speaker 2:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I know what I'm hearing you to Josh say is you know, half the battle is just making sure that your learners know that you, you do care about this right, that this that the you are going to give feedback on on writing, you are going to help them grow as a communicator and that you know you're going to be giving feedback on these things which you know, depending, you know, on their academic experience, they may or may not have gotten a lot of feedback on their writing.
Speaker 1:You know they've been primarily taking doing calculations and taking multiple choice tests right. So not always a ton of opportunity, you know, to do a lot of writing, except for maybe some isolated, you know courses here and there. So you know setting the tone that this is a valuable skill that you're going to help them develop. I think is goes goes a long ways too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and again, making sure that they realize that taking time for that is important, like I value that. So take the time to make sure that something is doesn't have to be perfect Nobody's perfect but turn in something or submit something that actually you feel, you know, proud of, you know I, I did this and met the deadline. I'd rather you tell me you need another day and then submit something that was worthwhile, as opposed to just meeting the deadline without telling me and it's just junk, you know so, um. So I think that's also important too is setting those expectations early on, in that you do value this and you even would allow some wiggle room and deadlines if it means that they're going to submit something. That's a stronger product for you to look at.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, I know we've kind of dabbled a little bit into some of the more advanced skills around citations and literature analysis and writing. You know, with that as the backdrop, other kinds of activities or assignments that you've used in the past or maybe colleagues use that help support skill development in that area. So like analyzing and synthesizing information or writing up.
Speaker 2:You mentioned writing up care plans or soap notes or yeah, I think one of the one of the things that I also did with the residents that was also beneficial and it kind of goes back to that peer, peer to peer thing, is an exercise where you each do it quickly and then you exchange and you give feedback on maybe it's like a case and you then have to write up a soap note or write up a care plan or whatever, and realizing that your colleagues saw it from a different perspective and maybe that opens your eyes as a learner to oh, I need to pay attention to those kinds of details and actually include them in the plan, or I always forget to include nutrition, you know, or whatever Um, and realizing that something that their colleague does is maybe something that they could adapt or adopt themselves.
Speaker 2:So I think that was a good skill as well, or a good um activity is kind of that um, uh guess exercise or whatever you want to call it, where I asked the residents and or the students to kind of exchange and kind of peer review each other and then not only give. They weren't necessarily giving feedback on were you right or not, but it was almost. It was more.
Speaker 2:For what did you see that I didn't see, or how did you say this and I didn't think to say it that way? What did you see that I didn't see? Or how did you say this and I didn't think to say it that way? And so it was almost kind of sharing ideas so that everybody could kind of see how others see things. I mean, we all see things from a different perspective and it's important sometimes to see that. And then I think another I would hate to do this personally, but another one, because I don't even know that I could. To be completely honest, it would take a lot to think about. It is to write a citation from scratch, like to actually do it yourself.
Speaker 2:You know and not utilize some kind of generator, and so I've heard of people doing that, and that's a way to kind of build um respect for that process yeah, yeah citation space. I think I would. I would royally mess that one up myself because I've become way too lenient on uh generating machines for that.
Speaker 2:So yeah me too, me too, yeah, for sure and then I think another thing is that we used a lot and I did it also with the residents is a journal club presentations.
Speaker 2:I think that's just a great way and I know everybody does it, but there are ways to really make them meaningful, because that's a great way to read about an impactful study, a game changing therapy, and have to synthesize that down and share it, you know, with a colleague in a short amount of time, then taking the two hours to read it and understand it and research it and whatever. So I think that's also a really good skill as well. Is, how can I do all of this and then convey that same message to a colleague and them understand it at the level I did, even though they only heard me talk about it for 10 minutes or something, right? So I think those are really and you can do that with more than just journal clubs. I mean, they could be, could be a whole host of things that you have them read and synthesize and share and drug information or exactly yeah exactly New drugs coming out on the market.
Speaker 2:What are?
Speaker 1:the big.
Speaker 2:What are the big things? What do you need to look out for? Patient education tips for certain medications that are common, like just a lot of different things. It doesn't have to be a groundbreaking study that they're sharing information with. You know, maybe, maybe they turn in if you have multiple students in the rotation. Maybe they each write like five drugs that they see commonly and you know the the education that needs to go along with them and then they they teach each other on. You know, those top used medications and education. So yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, A lot, of, a lot of ways that you can. I always tried to utilize my learners to my strength, Like I didn't need to reinvent the wheel every time to teach they could also be the teacher you know and so just kind of giving them the activities and the tools that are needed to teach each other to teach each other. Yeah, really important too yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and one thing that came to mind while you were talking about, you know, having an exercise where the learners really important too app and using that opportunity to demonstrate how mistakes might happen if there's no clarity in written communication, if the soap note's not complete if there's, you know, gaps that aren't filled because they're either hurrying or it doesn't dawn on them that that needs to be documented, or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's a great point and you know, especially, like, if you are trying to convey the message that you know collaboration with other health care providers is important and it's key to make sure that we're relaying this information so that they can choose the right medication at the right dose and whatever. And if we're leaving out key facts that you know, like maybe we forgot to tell them that they got a recent pneumonia vaccine or you know whatever, and so then the care plan that that other provider is going to create may be missing something key. So, yeah, and that's a great, you're right, that's a great way also for the students to kind of. I always told the students they need to be well, I always said they needed to be JB Fletcher's, and a lot of them didn't get that reference because they didn't know what Murder Sheerote was or they didn't grow up watching it.
Speaker 2:It wasn't their favorite show as a kid, like mine was. So I always told them that they needed to be sleuths, you know, and really dig deep and ask all the questions and get to the root of the problem and whatever. So, yeah, that's a great point as well, because sometimes you think it's assumed, or you think, oh, that's what it means, or somebody thinks they should know that that's what I'm talking about, when somebody else would come in and be like there needs to be more clarity here.
Speaker 2:I didn't get to that same point. You did, and so someone else is going to do the same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 2:I like that.
Speaker 1:Well, I think you know that some of the things we're talking about are probably I don't know, maybe more conducive to an academic rotation or, you know, clinical faculty or that kind of thing. What are some of the challenges? You know that preceptors maybe experience in, you know, in trying to integrate writing skills into their learning experience. I'm sure it depends on environment and all of those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:I think I mean time is probably a big one and again, these do not always go hand in hand. So I do not want to make a direct correlation or a stereotype of any sort. But you know, sometimes if a student is weak in the written communication area they're probably weak in clinical knowledge, they're probably weak in the synthesis of like recommending care plans and writing care plans and recommending treatment. So in the grand scheme of things, what is most important? Getting the right medication to the patient or eloquently telling someone how to get the right medication to the patient, or eloquently telling someone how to get the right medication? You know.
Speaker 2:So, I think that sometimes, unfortunately, it's a lesser of two evils. Like which one do I really need to focus on, because the student is struggling in several different capacities. So I think timing is is a difficult barrier. Timing is a difficult barrier, unfortunately. And again, I think you know there are certain things that I was not initially comfortable as a preceptor. I didn't feel like I was the expert. I didn't feel like I should be teaching someone how to write because I didn't feel like I was the greatest writer. So that could also be a challenge in that, you know, you don't feel as though not that you're not worthy.
Speaker 1:That you're super good at it either, right yeah?
Speaker 2:Should you be teaching someone how to professionally write when you feel like you need some skills as well? So I think that could also be a struggle for some. And then you know, I think it it ultimately boils down to two um, do you, are you good at giving feedback? Because you have to be. In this sense, this is not a um, you know you need to dress more professionally or whatever. Like this is. This is a bigger conversation and it's going to take time. It's not something they can just like. Okay, I'll dress more professionally, I'll I'll not wear tennis shoes, I'll wear dress shoes. Like it's more than just that. Like it's going to take time and effort and energy and constant work and they're going to have to go home and do their homework and research and work harder at it. So I think that that's also something too is maybe the the fear of stepping opening Pandora's box in that sense, because if you go down that path, then it's it's going to be a lot of work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense. No, I think too. When I was in the experiential education space, sometimes students you know who were not good written communicators, you know who were not good written communicators kind of the opposite, like the assumption could was then made that they weren't strong clinically, when in fact they were. But you know, they're written and sometimes even spoken. Communication skills were lacking and it led to an assumption that they were ill prepared and you know, with them some deeper digging, you realize that it wasn't. The issue is we've got to work on your communication skills.
Speaker 2:And we really don't. We don't need to work on your clinical knowledge. That's pretty strong, right? Yeah, there, there were some. Like I said, I didn't want to make a stereotype, but you're right, there are certainly anomalies in that sense when one was not strong and the other was. The clinical was there, so yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm just not able to communicate, yeah. So, well, as we kind of get toward the end of our time, josh, what advice would you give to preceptors who are just starting to emphasize writing skills during, you know, rotations, whether they're working with students or residents, what are? You know, what are some of those initial things they can do to just start emphasizing and trying to help build some of those skills?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's important to realize. Well, I guess it depends on your setting, but more than likely, you're only going to have the student for a short amount of time, so so you're you're not going to be able to to change everything about them, about their writing style, within you know, four weeks or five weeks, or even a year, even if you have them as a resident for a year, right? So I think that's important to, to just know, going into it is there's no way that I'm going to make them perfect when they come out, and so to, in that sense, it's important just to say, okay, I'm just going to start small, we're just going to. Maybe it's the first thing, is the, the activity that I did, where it's like, okay, yeah, you've met the deadline, you submitted it. Now I'm not even going to look at it. Go back and take another three days and really go over it with a fine tooth comb.
Speaker 2:You know, maybe that's the first step. Maybe the first step is ensuring that they're using a Grammarly or some sort of service that is, you know, perfecting their grammar and their spelling. I think those are some of the things to kind of start small with. And or maybe it's something as simple, as I don't know how often you're doing writing in your rotation, but if it's, if it's often, maybe you build in time. On Friday mornings at 11 o'clock we we talk about communication skills and writing for an hour, like. So maybe it's something that you actually build into. You know the schedule and really spend time on that. You know the schedule and really spend time on that. So my suggestion, the end of that, is start small. You're not going to there's no way to to change them completely, so don't go in thinking that you have to have like a complete overhaul plan. I think as long as you're tackling a few things, then that's. That's admirable and sufficient, for you know an experience.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, yeah, and it may be just, you know, just the if the goal is just to raise awareness about how improving these skills is going to serve them, both from a patient care perspective and a professional development perspective, because they might not even have that awareness necessarily if no one has said that to them. You're right Exactly, or they might not even have that awareness necessarily if no one has said that to them.
Speaker 2:You're right Exactly, or they may be so focused on getting through this experience and getting through pharmacy school that they don't realize that, oh, I am going to need to climb a ladder later or change jobs or change roles in some way, and so I'm going to have to write a letter of intent and I'm going to have to. You know, like there, there are things that they may not even realize. I think another thing, too, is is important for faculty is be sure that your feedback is consistent and timely, and you don't want to wait until the fifth week of a five week rotation to be like oh, by the way, every submission that you've done it's really terrible, and so I need you to go back and edit all of these before the end of the rotation on Friday. You know like you don't want to do something like that, so you want to do better next time.
Speaker 2:Yeah exactly, or I hope you're. I hope you do better with the next person, because the writing was terrible for mine.
Speaker 2:You know, like you want to be sure that the feedback is consistent and timely. And I think another thing, and then I'll I'll be done with my advice. But, um, this is something that I don't think we do a lot of enough of in any circumstance, and that's celebrate progress. So, yeah, you know, if you do have, if you do have it built into your schedule to every friday, do something and you see that they're making progress, even if it's small, even if they downloaded Grammarly and so the spelling was better the next time. Like, celebrate it, don't just be like, okay, that's what I told you to do, thank you so much. Celebrate it, say thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to do that. I appreciate you. You know ABC, whatever you did, I think that that's really important because it'll it'll help build confidence for that learner. Yeah, and you know, ultimately that's what's going to make them have the desire to actually change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and keep going, yeah, yeah. Great Well, any other like final takeaways that you will, you hope listeners will leave with today You've, you've given us, I think, some really good advice here in the wrap up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the final thing is just as a preceptor, give yourself some grace as well. You can't change the world every time.
Speaker 1:You can't do it all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can't do it all, and there's no way that you can make every student that comes through turn out perfect written documents. But as long as you have it kind of built into your experience and it's something that you focus some time on, then I think that's that's a win for you as well. So give yourself some grace in that too.
Speaker 1:So yeah, awesome. Yeah, that's great. Great call out. Well, josh, it's a pleasure. You can be my guest anytime which we talk about next month. Whatever you need, I'll let you know. That's right, you can be my guest anytime which we talk about next month.
Speaker 2:Whatever you need, I'll let you know. I'll let you know. You know where to find me.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, thanks so much, and I'm sure I'll see you this week later sometime.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. I hope you gained valuable insights and recognize the important role you play in helping your learners become effective writers. These skills are critical to becoming an effective practitioner, but they are also critical to their career development. As their mentor, it's important to support them in this aspect of their development, in addition to expanding their clinical knowledge and confidence. Remember to check out previous episodes of Preceptor Practice and don't forget to visit the full library of Preceptor by Design courses available for preceptors on the CE Impact website. Be sure you ask your experiential program director or residency program director if you are a member, so that you can access it all for free. And if you're a member, don't forget to claim your CE. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next time on Preceptor Practice.