CEimpact Podcast

Overcoming Barriers to Vaccine Hesitancy

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In an era where informed decisions are crucial to public health, understanding vaccine hesitancy has never been more critical.

Listen in to this week’s GC episode to learn actionable steps you can make today to break down vaccine hesitancy barriers and provide an accurate and data-driven approach to vaccine education in your community.

HOST
Jen Moulton, BSPharm
President
CEimpact

GUEST
Lacy Epperson, PharmD
Director of Pharmacy Clinical Services
Mitchell's Drug Stores
 
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CPE INFORMATION
Learning Objectives
Upon successful completion of this knowledge-based activity, participants should be able to:
1. Analyze the underlying factors contributing to vaccine hesitancy and their effects on public health.
2. Discuss effective communication and outreach strategies to increase vaccination rates within a pharmacys community.

0.05 CEU/0.5 Hr
UAN: 0107-0000-24-262-H06-P
Initial release date: 9/23/2024
Expiration date: 9/23/2025
Additional CPE details can be found here.

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Speaker 1:

Hey CMPAC subscribers, welcome to the Game Changers Clinical Conversations podcast. I'm your host, jen Moulton, and I'm really excited about our conversation today. As we head into the fall season and cooler temperatures, it is synonymously known to us in healthcare as respiratory illness season. I'm sure you can all relate to that. You know it's just a time when back to school and moving our daily lives inside can often equate with increased incidents of influenza, rsv, pneumonia, covid, all the things. And in an era where informed decisions are crucial to public health, I think understanding hesitancy to the vaccines that we have available for these illnesses, as well as other vaccine preventable diseases, has never been more critical. So that is what we're going to talk about today, and I am really excited to have Lacey Epperson with me to dig into this and really have her share, her actionable steps that you can take to break down vaccine hesitancy barriers and really provide a more accurate and data-driven approach to vaccine education in your community. So welcome Lacey.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me back.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. Yes, it's great to have you back. We had Lacey on a podcast earlier this year on measles, so thank you for joining us as we talk about this topic. And before we jump in, I just want to back up a little bit and ask you to tell us a little bit about your practice again and why you're so passionate about vaccine services in the pharmacy.

Speaker 2:

Sure. So I am a pharmacist and director of clinical services at Mitchell's Drugstores, which is a local community pharmacy in southwest Missouri, and at our pharmacy I would say that we have advanced, robust services and we want to be different. We want to truly display ourselves as the community pharmacy, so it's OK to have unique services. With that, we've really taken a dive into how can we stand out to provide the best patient care and most accessible patient care, especially in some places that may be more rural around us, and so we try to offer a wide variety of services, and through that I have taken a real passion at using an approach that is truly access driven, and so I also helped teach the community health worker course, and so we work a lot on training pharmacy technicians as community health workers, and through that we're able to identify gaps in care and start to use data of our surrounding communities and where we can make an impact on those services that we want to implement. And so, through various roles that I serve in as well as my current day-to-day life, it's all come to fruition with where we can really use our training to practice at the top of our training and our licensure to be able to impact patient care, especially in challenging times, and especially in challenging community pharmacy times. So I like to bring that clinical spin on it as well to traditional hometown pharmacy, and so I get really passionate about it because I work with a pretty large team at my own stores. We have a large number of technicians on staff and it's really great that we're able to offer various services like medication therapy management, robust adherence, packaging, pharmacogenomics, diabetes classes, point-of-care testing.

Speaker 2:

I'm actually sitting right now in our recently opened clinic and so we are really trying to do things that are sustainable for both patient care access and for the profession itself, and so a lot of this comes back to truly fulfilling a need.

Speaker 2:

So I know that's a long-winded answer, but I do a lot of work with CPSN Missouri as a regional facilitator as well, and so I get to work with other pharmacy teams, especially in my region, and I've started to take a role in different national organizations to kind of coach other pharmacies as well and pharmacy teams and how do you engage with patients and also find that to be something that's doable in a really busy community pharmacy workflow. So for me, I am really passionate. On a personal note, I also I have a I guess he's a year and 10 months old now, an almost two-year-old son, and so it's really a different perspective, as a mom as well, to think you know what my child will be experiencing and growing up in and everything that he will have to endure, and I care about his health as well as my patients. So, yeah, so that's a few reasons why I'm passionate about this topic.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love it, that is a great spin. So you're in the midst of immunizations, yes, with that little guy, yes, for sure. And you know you talk a little bit about clinical pharmacy just more broad, and you know immunization is really, I think, the low hanging fruit for us, you know, in community pharmacy, and I think it's it's a really important way to start to have those conversations. Good things about COVID was, you know, patients really seeing their eyes were opened a little bit to some of the things that community pharmacy should and is doing for their health. So I think that was one of the positive things.

Speaker 1:

As it relates to this topic of vaccine hesitancy, it's always fascinating to me, as I think you know it's such a blend of science, social, psychological, I think, more recently, political, even views, you know, on something as important as healthcare. So you know you talked about being there for the whole patient throughout their lives and you know servicing all of their healthcare needs and immunization is such a big part of that. But yet there's so much hesitancy around it, and even more so, I think, in the last few years. So I'm really anxious to hear your advice. So pharmacists have words and really proven strategies to overcome some of that hesitancy and really increase the outcomes, make the outcomes better in our communities as far as healthcare goes.

Speaker 1:

So you talk about your son. My daughter is 22 and teaching kindergarten and she is in the city, in the inner city, and so she came home just this week and said "'Well, I lost a student today "'because he wasn't up to date on his vaccine' "'So they had to pull him out of school'". So it is a real thing. No matter what age you are. It's impacting the health of our communities and our schools and everything. So let's really start by defining what we mean when we say someone is vaccine hesitant. What does that mean to you when you hear those words?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I think there's multiple factors to consider when we think about hesitancy, and you actually touched on quite a few of them which I would agree with, but I think it's important with vaccine hesitancy. I think everyone's quote unquote hesitancy is different, so sometimes it may come from a place of mistrust or distrust or misinformation, and then another source of vaccine hesitancy may also be just not truly being aware of the vaccinations they need. So I think that those two things can kind of go hand in hand. So we've been working on a really large project where you know not to digress, but you mentioned low-hanging fruits. So I believe that, especially in the community pharmacy, we have a place in primary care and preventative health roles. So when you mentioned that being a low-hanging fruit, it is.

Speaker 2:

And in COVID although, trust me, I was in the heat of a lot of different ventures during COVID I was administering monoclonal antibodies, shutting down my lobby, trying to run vaccine clinics by myself, and so there's this space where I'm trying to provide vaccinations as well as treatment for patients with COVID and the physical space was kind of confining to that, and it was so interesting how hesitancy really played a role, in my opinion because of COVID, and I know that everyone has different perspectives and different personal stories and different political viewpoints, but I think what's so interesting is it's not about any of that really. It's about the data and the facts that exist, and so you know not to make unintelligent comparisons. But I think one thing that really has always shocked me when we think about hesitancy, I think you have to be able to relate to the patient. So that's really hard sometimes when you don't relate to the patient. But vaccine hesitancy sometimes when I initiate these conversations, it's simply because a patient didn't even realize that they were eligible for a certain vaccination or that they needed it. It's not even that they were against it, they just didn't know they needed it. And sometimes that concerns me, because why aren't other people talking to them about it, including primary care providers, including specialists, whatever that role is? I think it's so interesting that I was maybe the first person that had that conversation with them, and so when I think back to COVID, I really believe that a lot of people started trying to research vaccines more and that I think it's so important to be educated and to be knowledgeable. But sometimes their sources of information are not correct either, and so that can be pretty detrimental as well. And so I feel that we've seen, in my opinion, since the COVID vaccine has been out, we've seen, in my opinion, since the COVID vaccine has been out, variations of the COVID vaccine.

Speaker 2:

I think a lot of people are either very much understanding the importance of vaccinations and preventative health or they're very much against it, and that's created more hesitancy. And so I think in a way, it's made our job as pharmacists and call myself a primary care pharmacist I think that has made my job more difficult in a lot of ways. And so not that this approach would work everywhere, but I hear a lot of different individuals who say that they'll vaccinate their pets or they'll vaccinate their you know, whatever their cattle or whatever it is, but not themselves, and so I think that's so interesting to me, and so I think, at the end of the day, well, why are we doing that? And we have to go back to the science behind it. And so you know, like I said, it's really hard to have the same approach with every patient, and, honestly, the way I practice, I try to make a personalized approach towards everything. So I think a very similar thing goes along with vaccine hesitancy.

Speaker 2:

And as I've been training my staff not to kind of transition into this, but we have really been taking on a very large pilot project in Missouri and it's been a network-wide Missouri opportunity, not just at my pharmacies, and through this it has been purely about the education and the hesitancy in closing gaps in care. It's not even about the administration of the vaccine, it's about having those conversations and it's paved an avenue for us to be able to do that. And so through those conversations we've started to gather more data about gap closures, about what patients are saying or where are the barriers, whether it's cost-related, whether it's, you know, whether it is an information source or whatever that is, and it's been really interesting and really eye-opening to me and that's where I think I've started to get a lot more information about why we have to approach patients individually with this. And so I think it's important to come into a conversation prepared, organized, because they may want information, but not overwhelming. And so you know a patient that maybe is due for seven vaccinations.

Speaker 2:

It's probably not going to be well received if you say, by the way, you're due for this and this and this and you just start listing them, because then they do feel like they're a number and it's just a standard and there's no personalized approach. But if you show them, hey, I take care of you every month. They know my name, they know my community health worker's name, they know us as local pharmacy and they know we're going to look out for their health as a whole, not just as a statistic, not just as a number. That starts to create a foundation for them to trust what we're saying, and so I really try to approach it with that in mind whenever I'm talking to patients, and so that kind of goes back to the low-hanging fruits.

Speaker 2:

So I've had a lot of patients that are very interested in receptive to information related to COVID or other respiratory illnesses. But I think for those patients that are extremely vaccine hesitant back to your original question what is hesitancy? For some reason a patient doesn't want to, or they have a concern about why they should receive a vaccination service. That's what I think hesitancy is, and so I think it's kind of finding what their reason is and being able to attempt to work through that with them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I think you're right and you know I hadn't thought about it that way. But you know, as pharmacists, we are scientists and so we look at the science. You know, we look at the evidence, we look at the data, we're looking at the science, we're saying you should have this because it's proven and they're safe, and you know all the things. So what are the questions that you ask a patient to? To get at what their hesitancy is, whether it's misinformation or they just don't know. What are those initial questions? And then can you give us some examples of how you overcome those barriers?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, of course. So this goes for a lot of approaches, but anytime you're having a conversation with a patient, you don't necessarily know what their response will be. So you've touched on some of the reasons that patients may have some of these hesitancies, and even people that you may know well, you may not know where they stand on some of this, on their beliefs about vaccinations, and so I always try to approach this with, like I said, I throw a bone for one thing, and so I actually think we have a great opportunity with it being respiratory season now, because we have a lot of options, we have a lot of things to worry about, and we have a great opportunity with it being respiratory season now, because we have a lot of options, we have a lot of things to worry about and we have a lot of things that we need to protect people from. But even over the summer months, when it wasn't a high respiratory season, we've been seeing high success rates, because we say things like hey, by the way, I just wanted to let you know I've been working on a vaccine review project and I just wanted to check in. Do you think you've had a tetanus shot in the last 10 years? And of course I've already looked that information up. I know I see that they have not had a tetanus shot in the last 10 years and if I'm going to bring it up then I want to make sure that you know there's a conversational piece to that and a lot of times patients will say, well, now that you mentioned it, no, I don't think so. And then that's where it kind of leads to that. Those next steps, so we can still be prepared and do the screening.

Speaker 2:

So my job as the pharmacist from the clinical side is let me do the screening and know so that if they want to have a further conversation, I can say oh yes, you are also due for that. Oh, yes, you are, you know and I'm prepared. But I don't have to come out the gate when the patient first walks in or first picks up the phone with, you know, making them think that I'm quote, unquote pushing something or that there's any sort of agenda other than looking out for their health. And those are the words I always say to them, especially when they do display that hesitancy of oh no, no, I don't think that I'm getting that vaccine, or whatever the case is, I say, oh okay, well, I just I really care about you and I wanted to make sure that you at least were aware of that and that you know that we can offer those services so that if you ever need that, I can provide that access to care. So I try to just be very receptive of whatever their response is and adaptable. But that's how I try to start the conversations.

Speaker 2:

The other thing is it doesn't have to be just me, so I want patients hearing from the people that they're used to hearing from, because those are the people they trust. So one example is we have a pretty large department, I guess, of adherence packaging, and so these are patients that are very used to talking to our staff. They're very trusting of our staff. We typically take care of a lot of other needs for these patients besides just medications, which I think is one of the coolest things about my job is taking care of all the other things and showing people what all we can do. So that goes back to the.

Speaker 2:

I guess one of the good things that came out of COVID is all of these places are shutting down. No one has access to care, they don't know where to go for information, but your local pharmacies were still open and your pharmacists were still available and accessible, even though we were probably really stressed and busy. We were there and they saw that and they trusted us for true information. I try to take that approach as well and, for example, I can still use my clinical knowledge to make those determinations of what a patient is eligible for versus not. Versus that you know when clinical shared decision-making comes into play as well, and so I think, utilizing my staff, especially my community health workers that are talking to these patients, they know, hey, when we deliver, the patient's daughter's going to answer the door if it's on this day. Because you know, hey, when we deliver, the patient's daughter is going to answer the door if it's on this day. Because they know all of these things about the patient. And so, by having them be that connection and touch point to saying hey, I've been working with Lacey and she wanted me to let you know. Lacey, one of our pharmacists, wanted me to let you know.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes that information comes better from those that they already have that established trust with, and so I think a lot of where we've been speaking so far has been within our routine patient base, those that we're used to knowing.

Speaker 2:

But the whole other avenue is the outreach side, and I actually it's really interesting because I actually think that we do a really great job of being present in our communities.

Speaker 2:

So there are, believe it or not, patients don't know where they can go get certain services, they don't know if there's a copay, they don't know how any of this works.

Speaker 2:

Pharmacy benefits are different from medical a lot of times, and so there's just a lot of factors that go into play, and patients don't even realize that we're also maybe under different laws from state to state, or that everything just is so variable, and so I think it's so important to be able to be present in a way that makes it as convenient for the patient as possible, and all they see is that they now have access to care.

Speaker 2:

They don't need to know that I you know that I was under needing a prescription for this because I can't vaccinate for this, unless you know I have a protocol or whatever it is, or that there's age-based restrictions, and so I think it's important to create that foundation in your pharmacy and have all of that information, be prepared with that information, be prepared with what are the laws in my state and what am I allowed to do and am I allowed to purchase this and do you know all of these things and then be prepared to share that with your community? And so that is also where I've been using my community health workers a lot to their skill sets on the outreach side.

Speaker 1:

So if you have a patient who says, no, I don't want that vaccine, what? What do you say? That Like I, you know, like I love how you, I love the example of you, you know, did you know? You know and maybe they don't know that they didn't have that because it is hard to track that when you only get it every 10 years. What do you do when somebody says, right back, I do know that and I don't want it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So again, the conversation sometimes can look a little different or sound a little different, but I had this happen. Literally, I'm trying to think I guess this was last night. So I had this conversation happen and I usually say, oh, okay, yeah, I definitely respect that. If you don't mind me asking, could I know why? Just just so I know whether you know I don't want to keep asking you about this in the future and I use that as kind of a fallback so that they think, okay, she's not going to ask me about it. So let me make sure and tell her why. And usually this is just an example of what happened last night. And I, I mean, I have different examples in mind.

Speaker 2:

Um, but this patient that I was like you mentioned earlier low hanging fruit respiratory flu shots. We're doing them like crazy right now. So I said oh, by the way, did you know that we are officially administering flu shots? We've actually seen an early uptick in flu cases this year, so I would recommend going ahead and getting it. And this patient said to me and also this was interesting because this patient is not vaccine hesitant this patient said to me well, let me know when you get the COVID vaccine in, but I don't. I actually just don't get flu shots. And I said, oh well, if you don't mind me asking, why do you get COVID, not flu? And sometimes I use that as an example because you know, again, kind of depends on how the conversation went.

Speaker 1:

Or the other way around.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, or the other way around, or the other way around and I kind of said I was like, oh okay, well, that's, that's interesting to me. Can I ask why? And I kind of just I use it as like I genuinely care Can you let me know why? Just just so that I can understand as well and so that I don't, you know, maybe pester you about this. And they said, well, honestly, I just I've I've never had a bad experience with the flu, or I don't know of anyone that's had it as bad, or you know, whatever the answer was, something about flu didn't seem as as as important to protect against, because the repercussions of the flu weren't as as severe is what I gathered. And I said, well, yeah, that makes sense, and I always, I always want to empathize with the patient and be relatable. And I said, no, the only thing I will will kind of just throw out there and you're welcome to think about this is don't you, don't you do a lot of volunteering in the community? Yeah, so then we got to have the conversation about herd immunity and then, additionally, I said, you know one other thing just to kind of think about, because maybe it wouldn't affect you, maybe maybe it won't. So like I get it from your perspective and I always tell them again, I relate with them, I get it from your perspective. But aren't you going to be a grandma soon? And this patient said oh yeah, I did and I'm fairly certain this patient came and got their flu shot today. So all this to say it's not a matter of it's not a tactic, it's about trying to relate with them, to get them to understand why it should matter to them. And even if because I think the hardest part is when patients say, well, I've never gotten the flu, the one year I did get the flu shot is when I got the flu, or whatever the case may be that's when you have to whip out a little bit of the science and say, well, it cannot cause the flu, and you kind of have to explain that. And that's a lot harder, I think, for people to kind of accept and digest.

Speaker 2:

But when you have those conversations, not even keep not, and I know this is probably not a good pharmacist advice, but I try to make it relatable to them as a person and their family and what they do Not even I don't start with the science base, unless they're asking me questions that are about the data or about the science I do, depending on the vaccine, whenever they want to know well, is it very, is it very effective? Of course we talk about that, but when it's that initial conversation on oh, by the way, here's like, did you know you need this? Or they give you that pushback of that. No, no, I don't get that. You know, at the end of the day, there are some people that they just will not get it, no matter what you say, they probably don't care. But it might feel a little bit more difficult to tell your trusted pharmacist at your local pharmacy why you don't want to get something and why maybe you, you know, should at least consider talking to them about it. So, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, and I think you know just the words that you use to empathize with them, I think are so good. I mean, as I'm listening to you, I'm like, oh yeah, like I wouldn't have thought to say that. So I think having some of those conversations in your back pocket are really important and I know you know, just to build trust and just you know, even if you're not successful that first time, I think you know they've, they've heard you there. You're giving them something, something to think about, and then they trust you because you're like, okay, like I hear where you're coming from, I, you know it's your, your health, and so then they trust you. And maybe when you have, you know, a really important recommendation, or the next time you ask cause you're going to ask again, then they might be more open to it. So I think it's also kind of a journey you know with, with patients as well, and I don't know if you've seen that.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, it is. And I think one thing I just thought of as well that's so interesting to me is having to have your staff bought in, because even when your staff doesn't fully understand, you know, like I said, we kind of have a unique space, at least in Missouri, with the role of a community health worker, and it does not take over the fact that they cannot counsel, but they are a big connection and outreach, educational touchpoint for patients, and so I love to empower them and say, when you're having conversations with patients, letting them know that we are able to help solve that gap in their care and we have that solution here at our pharmacy. You know, sometimes I don't think they want to have those conversations, and so I finally I had this. I guess it was a few months ago. I had this revelation where I decided to tell my staff. I said, okay, I want you guys to think about and I used one of their favorite patients and he's a pretty elderly gentleman, he is widowed. And he's a pretty elderly gentleman, he is widowed, he is just the kindest person and I said now, think about, just because you didn't want to have a conversation that was maybe uncomfortable or seemingly uncomfortable for you. What if he ends up in the hospital with? And then you can throw in whatever disease state. But let's just for this example, I said pneumonia disease state. But let's just for this example. I said pneumonia, because we all know that pneumonia, that there's a lot of comorbidities with pneumonia and we can see a lot of negative repercussions and other acute diseases that go along with pneumonia and it can be very detrimental and hopefully not life-threatening. But yeah, it can. And so I use that as an example and I say now think about it.

Speaker 2:

Just because we didn't want to have that conversation, what if he ends up in the hospital with pneumonia? And we started talking about it, I said how would that make you feel if we didn't at least do our part? We work in healthcare. Our job is to look after people's health.

Speaker 2:

Our job isn't necessarily to for everyone to agree with us or to make us happy, but if we say it with a smile when you're on the phone, if you say it with a smile in person, if you say it from a caring place, that our job is to look after your health, at the end of the day patients may not understand and you will never have a 100% success rate and we know this, although that would be the day patients may not understand. And you will never have a 100% success rate, and we know this, although that would be the goal. We know this. So we can say is hey, I respect that. I just want you to know that that I do work in healthcare and my job is to look after your health. You know, like, I just think it's one of those things that we have to put that into perspective as well, because, unfortunately, there's a lot of healthcare providers that may not be in consistency with you whenever you're trying to have these conversations, and that's a whole other challenge. So, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

I think that's a really good point that everybody's on the same page about what the goals are and, although the goals are 100%, that's a stretch goal. But you're right when they think about I'm here to provide healthcare and by doing that, I'm asking the question every time are you up to date on your vaccines? Have you had this? Have you had this? So what do you have, speaking of your team? Do you have specific procedures and processes for asking patients every time? You know, do you look at what medications they're on and make sure that they're up to date on vaccines, or what's your process to ensure that everyone who needs a vaccine is asked?

Speaker 2:

if they'd like it. Yeah, great question. So we actually have a few different avenues of how these conversations can generate. The main one, as I alluded to earlier, is through our Call it what you Want. It's an adherence program MedSync, caresync.

Speaker 2:

However you'd like to reference it, we have that foundation in place already, which is phenomenal because we're looking at wow, I was running a number for someone before I came in here so we're looking at 90% of our regular routine patients are being basically followed, monitored, we're looking after their health through this program and, of course, you know we don't call it a program to the patients. The goal is that it's a proactive way to be able to look at their health as a whole, whether that includes over-the-counter medications, preventative health services, screenings that we offer on site, any of these things, packaging and so through. That we do have a process in place where the pharmacist can initiate the clinical side of determining eligibility and we, through the community health workers, have the ability for them to have the conversation about access and knowing that the pharmacy does service these vaccinations that the pharmacist has determined that they're eligible for and then, if there's any clinical question, it of course gets pushed back to the pharmacist. That is one avenue, so we have a very regimented way of looking at the follow-up related to that too. A lot of this data is being published now, which is so cool to me because we always talk about. Well, we know pharmacies can do it, we know that we have one of the highest patient touch points, we're one of the most accessible healthcare providers, but there's never been a true piece of data that's been monitored that shows how we can close these gaps in care, and so this grant, this very large grant that we've been working on in Missouri, has really more than proven what pharmacy teams are able to do and where we can close gaps in care for patients, because we are so used to contacting them every month and following their healthcare as a whole. Anyways, it's just an added conversation at the end, it's an added extra sentence or two, it's an added extra less than five minutes, and so it's finding a way to work that into your workflow. So that would be what I would call proactive.

Speaker 2:

The second piece of that is we do use technology, and so, through our point of sale, we can automate some of those interventions. So I have set up some pop-ups, basically, that will notify us if a patient is, uh, overdue for a certain vaccine and I try not to overwhelm my staff with those. I try to do different, like quarterly I'll. I'll switch what the vaccine is that we're kind of looking at and targeting um based on patient ages, conditions, things like that. And then the other thing, of course, is that the pharmacist station itself so we are seeing all of those prescriptions come through we have an opportunity with all of those patients to document that have those phone calls.

Speaker 2:

We really try to take advantage of any type of MTM opportunity available to us and so if we're already making those phone calls, we're already having those conversations. We always try to tack on the vaccination conversation at the end of it. So I kind of feel like those are the three avenues we're using to make sure that all of our patients are being taken care of or having those conversations. The last thing is, of course I mentioned technology before, but we do try to digitize some of this information. So, even if it's not a true encounter, sit-down conversational encounter we use bag stuffers, we use signage, we use pamphlets, we send it, depending on certain medications the patients are on, we have a way to send notifications out to those patients and so all of that to say we do the best we can to try to make that information as face up as possible for patients and as much as they're willing to receive that information.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, I think that's so great. I think you know you talked about the different types of hesitancy, and sometimes hesitancy isn't even negativity, it's just not knowing. So I think just asking the question is so important. It's like, oh yeah, you, you're right, I'm not, you know, up to date and it's. Can I give that to you right now? Sure, why not? So I, you know, I think that that is the lowest hanging fruit possible. Um, you know, just by asking the question and, and most of the time, you'll probably get a yes, so that that's great.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, this has been so good. I feel like we could talk about this topic all day long, and I'm looking at the timer and realizing we probably shouldn't talk about it all day long. So I want to end just with a question that I ask everyone. The podcast is called Game Changers, so I've been asking what is the game changer here? So, in other words, what is the most important point that you want to leave pharmacists with, who are really looking to make an impact in vaccine uptake and hesitancy and increasing vaccination rates in their communities?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I think I would say for these pharmacists of course, everyone's at different comfortabilities with these conversations and you have different team dynamics. But I think what I would tell you is don't different comfortabilities with these conversations and you have different team dynamics, but I think what I would tell you is don't be afraid to start these conversations, even if they create controversy, because your job is to look out for the health of the patient. Your job is to protect their health care as a whole. And you know we have a lot of opportunity in pharmacy right now. There's a lot of challenges, but there's also a lot of opportunity.

Speaker 2:

And so take those wins, take those gap closures that you're seeing, take those success stories and use those to fuel your next conversation with a patient, because, as Jen just mentioned in the last piece, here we are seeing a lot of success. I think it's actually, in a weird way, it's really encouraging to know that it's it's because patients don't have the right information, not because they're not willing, and so I think it's important to remember that. You know, I I'm definitely a sports girl and so I use a lot of sports references, but it's kind of like you'll miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. You know, and it's the same thing, the same thing here. So I know that's cliche, but it's true, and I think.

Speaker 1:

No, I love it, I love it, I love it. I'm a sports girl too, and it's so funny that you say that, because when you said out of challenge comes opportunity, I had the Herb Brooks you know hockey speech in my head. So we're both on the sports analogies today. It must be something in the air. That's right. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

Speaker 1:

If you don't ask the question, you're never going to get a yes. So making sure to ask the question is so important and I think you know we have an opportunity to prevent they are called vaccine preventable diseases for a reason, and so we have the opportunity to prevent and increase these healthcare outcomes and make them better for patients and make them better for our communities. So thank you so much for all of the work that you're doing in your pharmacy and in your community and in your state. Very cool that you have that grant and I would also, I guess, encourage everyone to take a look at that if you can. The things that they're doing in Missouri as it relates to vaccine hesitancy have just been tremendous and huge and cool, and I think every state, hopefully, is going to start to take note of that and hopefully you'll have some opportunities in your state, because I know you know. On another note, I think it's been positive for your pharmacy from from from a money standpoint, from a financial standpoint.

Speaker 1:

So there are challenges in pharmacy right now, but there are also a lot of opportunity and I think vaccination is one of the huge opportunities that we have. So that's an opportunity COVID gave us. Believe it or not, and it's so ironic, but it's there. So thank you again, lacey. It is always so much fun to have you. I really appreciate it and I learned so much from you. So that is it for this week. If you're a CE plan subscriber, be sure to claim your CE credit for this episode by logging in at CE impactcom and, as always, have a great week and keep learning. We'll talk to you next week.

Speaker 3:

Thanks for listening in. Claim your CE credit by clicking on the link in the show notes and check out CE Impact's other education at CEImpactcom, where we curate the most important information in pharmacy and medicine to deliver straight to you. Join today to connect your learning to practice.