CEimpact Podcast

Creative Ways to Engage Your Students and Residents

Share episode

Do you feel like it is getting more difficult to engage your students or residents on your rotation and keep them engaged? Or maybe you personally feel a little bored with the same old activities and strategies. In this episode, preceptors Beth Cady and Carrie Vogler of Southern Illinois University Edwardsville on some creative strategies they use to engage their learners.
 
Kathy Schott, PhD
Vice President, Education & Operations
CEimpact

Kate Newman, PharmD
Director of Experiential Education
Southern Illinois University Edwardsville

Elizabeth Cady, PharmD
Clinical Associate Professor
Southern Illinois University Edwardsville

Carrie Vogler
Clinical Professor
Southern Illinois University Edwardsville

Get CE: CLICK HERE TO CPE CREDIT FOR THE COURSE!

CPE Information
 
Learning Objectives
At the end of this course, preceptors will be able to:
1. Discuss barriers to effectively engaging students and residents in their experiential learning
2. Identify creative strategies for engaging students and residents to optimize their learning

0.075 CEU/0.75 Hr
UAN: 0107-0000-24-059-H99-P
Initial release date: 2/21/2024
Expiration date: 2/21/2027
Additional CPE details can be found here.

The speakers have no relevant financial relationships with ineligible companies to disclose.

ChatGPT 3.5 (https://chat.openai.com) was utilized in the planning of this Precept2Podcast episode.

This program has been:
Approved by the Minnesota Board of Pharmacy as education for Minnesota pharmacy preceptors.

Reviewed by the Texas Consortium on Experiential Programs and has been designated as preceptor education and training for Texas preceptors.

Follow CEimpact on Social Media:
LinkedIn
Instagram

Speaker 1:

Hello, If you are a regular listener, welcome back. If you're new to preceptive practice, then welcome. We're glad you're here. Preceptive practice is EMPAC's podcast, created specifically for pharmacy preceptors. Each month, we cover a topic that is focused on helping you connect to resources and ideas that can help you improve your precepting practice, become a more effective teacher and mentor and balance your work with these additional but important responsibilities. Do you feel like it's getting more difficult to engage your students or residents on your rotation and keep them engaged? Maybe what used to work just doesn't seem too anymore, or maybe you are feeling a little bored with the same old activities and strategies. In this episode, we're taking a slightly different approach from past episodes. I invited my friend and colleague, Kate Newman, director of experiential education at Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville, to reach out to her preceptors and identify some new and unique strategies that any preceptor could employ. To shake things up a little bit, Kate connected with preceptors Beth Cady and Carrie Vogler, and I think you'll find the resulting conversation really helpful. Let's listen in.

Speaker 2:

Hello and welcome. I'm Kate Newman. I serve as director of experiential education at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville School of Pharmacy, and I'm excited to be here today as a guest host to talk about engaging student learners on rotation. I think we can all agree that, in addition to wanting our learners to have a deep understanding of pharmacy knowledge and to practice patient care, we also want them to grow in their clinical thinking and their reflection skills, and I would argue that we carefully design our rotations, in fact, to have specific assignments or topic discussions, other projects or assignments in order to help facilitate that. But it can still be very challenging at times. So I'm excited to be here with two of my colleagues who both serve as APPE preceptors and have developed and utilized unique strategies to engage students on rotation. But before we dive into that, carrie and Beth, would you introduce yourselves for everyone?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, thanks, kate. So my name is Beth and I am an associate professor at Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville, and my practice site is at a 500-bed hospital community teaching hospital and I practice in infectious disease.

Speaker 4:

Hi, I'm Carrie Vogler. I'm a professor at SIUV School of Pharmacy. My area of practice is internal medicine and I love precepting students in residence on my rotations at a 500-bed community hospital.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you again for joining me today. I was excited to have you both here because, like I said, you each developed different strategies that are both interesting and, I hope, applicable to a wide range of folks, and I think what we're talking about today. Originally I was thinking of our APPE learners, but of course these strategies would apply, I think, to residents as well. So, again, before we jump into that, you've both worked with lots of student learners, residents. When you think of a learner who's actively engaged in their learning, what does that look like to you as a preceptor?

Speaker 3:

I think for me, when learners are able to talk through their thought process, regardless of whether they know all the answers or not, but when they're able to just have a conversation with me, admit when they don't know something, admit where they would go to look it up, that's what I think is engaging.

Speaker 4:

I would definitely agree with that, beth, and you know I'm always looking for students that are motivated to be with me on rotation. That's not for everybody, that they're not all going to come in that way, unfortunately, but I'm hoping that I can tailor my rotation experience to things that they are going to find valuable in their practice. I really love to see students that are asking really good questions and are spending a thorough amount of time working up their patience and really assessing what's going on with their patient and getting involved with that patient care, so that they can see the impact that they have.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I love the word involved. I mean, I often think of, you know, students who show up excited, who are curious, who maybe you're talking about one thing or seeing one patient, but they're relating it to experiences they maybe had on a previous rotation, where they're like oh, that's right, I saw so, and so, with that before, I think those are always good signs of students who are, you know, really there to learn and to get as much from the experiences they can. And, and, carrie, like you said, that's what we want. But maybe we don't always see that and sometimes it can be more challenging than others, or I think some learners just need a little more help to kind of get them to that point. So what are some maybe barriers that you have noticed, either from the student side or even from the preceptor side, the barriers that come up that make it more challenging to be engaged?

Speaker 3:

I think we can all agree all preceptors in the API or IPI or even resident setting we can all agree that we probably do so much of the question asking. We could probably take a tally of how many questions we ask our learners a day and say I want you to follow up on that with me tomorrow. One of my biggest barriers is holding my own self accountable on those actual follow ups, trying to remember what did I ask them to look up? What do I really need to reinforce versus what can take a few days to look into and get back to me. That's one of my biggest barriers. I ask a lot of questions but sometimes I forget what questions I asked and when is a good time to follow up on that.

Speaker 2:

And I'm sure that you find you ask similar questions rotation after rotation. I'm sure similar themes come up. Sometimes it's hard to remember, like was that these students or was that the module before it can kind of run together sometimes.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely, especially when you're you know, if you're a faculty member, you're precepting a lot of students in a year, and residents too.

Speaker 4:

I also think it's really hard for the students to remember all of the information that they've learned on their rotations and keep those connections building over time. So I always get frustrated when I've taught the material didactically to the students and then they come to my rotation and they struggle to remember those key concepts.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it can be a lot to remember and I can understand I would feel frustrated when students would say no one ever taught us that. And then I was thinking, no, I taught you. I think I taught you that. So it can sometimes be frustrating to, and having a student that's not engaged in the process can also sometimes feel Make precepting feel a lot harder and it can feel frustrating at times. And it's also frustrating because you know that they might not be getting out of the experience everything that they could be getting from it. So that's why I think you know this topic is of interest to me and, of course, as an experiential director, I have a very vested interest in trying to help us find new approaches. So let's let's dive into what you each developed. Beth, I'm going to start with you. Would you start by just telling us what is this strategy that you came up with, maybe to address some of those barriers you talked about?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so again, one of the things, another barrier that I was thinking about is when you're a preceptor on a rotation, you want to make sure your learners are engaged, but you also don't have unless you tend to have this amount of time. I don't have eight hours during my day that I can keep my learners with me at my side and I can make sure they're being held accountable for all the things that I'm asking them to do or asking them to learn. So, especially during the pandemic, when a lot of our rotations were actually going online and when we weren't on a computer screen, I actually had no idea what my students were doing. So I developed this technique. It's called the wild ID and it's an acronym that stands for what I learned doing infectious disease. It's kind of akin to you know, today I learned, or one thing I learned today a lot of people are talking about that acronym on Twitter but I turned it into a wild ID and you could you could essentially incorporate this tactic on any rotation it doesn't have to be infectious or any rotation it doesn't have to be infectious. So I decided, but it was a way to hold myself accountable for asking my students all those questions every single day. In essence, what I decided was at the end of every rotation day and I have the students complete this task by the end of the business day. That's very important.

Speaker 3:

That group includes me and any learners that I have on rotation, and they have to type up a wild ID or what I learned doing ID.

Speaker 3:

In essence, it's a chance for them to take at least one of those questions that I asked them and they get to take time to look up the answer and respond to our entire group so that everybody can learn whatever topic they were looking into. And it can be as simple as hey, what I learned doing ID today. I forgot that vancomycin covers MRSA. They can leave it at that, or it can be as complex as wow, I really dove into this concept of gram negative bacterias and how to treat using different drug therapies, and they can incorporate primary literature anything. So they can be very simple answers. They can be very complex and what's great about the accountability is I get to respond with an answer to say, ooh, tell me more. And they can dive in and be more engaged even when we're not face to face. So if you have something you can do, hold your learners and yourself accountable when you don't have that face to face time.

Speaker 2:

I love that you number one a lot of things about that, I think. One using a platform that they're already familiar and comfortable with, and I think you could if you didn't want to use text or someone wanted to adopt the idea, but not that strategy. You could use other platforms for sure, but you use something that they're comfortable with and so it feels maybe easier, quicker, less formal in some ways. Perhaps then writing up a drug information question, that would take a lot of time, but I also love that you're able to engage them in following up with your feedback or whatever your comments are, and so do you find that they generally take to this easily, or are there some challenges that maybe you've faced?

Speaker 3:

I wondered how it would go, considering I implemented it during COVID, and I thought, oh, I'll just do this during COVID and then, once I get back into the hospital, then we'll see how it goes. But it really took off and, anecdotally, almost every student who's been on rotation with me has talked about how much they love the wild ID and how they have discovered a better way to learn and it kind of shows them that learning doesn't have to be in this strict, rigid format. It can be very conversational and it can happen over text. It doesn't have to be in this structured, regimented topic discussion, which are nice in their own way, but it's just showing them a different way to learn and it's been so beneficial that I've continued to do it even though I'm now fully back in the office. But students really take to it and they've impressed me with a lot of their wild IDs.

Speaker 2:

I love that. Something that was born out of desperate times and like let's try this because I don't know what else to do in this situation, Really kind of stuck around and became something that you've continued. What do you think it is about? Wild ID, that the students are engaging in a new way to learn. What do you think is different about it for them compared to what we've traditionally done?

Speaker 3:

I think using the text format is very comfortable. I'm the generation that I text just as much as my students do, probably maybe less, but it's a comfortable format for them and they know I've told them upfront. I ask a lot of questions during the day and it can be hard for students to absorb all of those questions and decide how do I prioritize this? What do I pick, what do I not pick? Is she going to get mad at me if I don't answer all of these questions? It was a way to just set the playing field and let the students know hey, I ask you a lot of questions during the day. I don't expect you to answer them all. Don't feel overwhelmed. This is one way for us to both hold each other accountable that you're answering questions and you're doing it in a format that allows you the time and energy to put into whatever you're learning.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think I'd like that you're setting those clear expectations up front, because I could see the implementation of this maybe could go poorly if it was this, like I expect a long response at the end of every day, or, like you said, if there's a lot of concern about how you're utilizing this information to assess them or whatever. I could see where maybe that might be more challenging for students, but it sounds like you've built rapport. This is one kind of short task at the end of the day. It doesn't sound like this is intended to be very time intensive for students, although, you know, depending on what they pick, it could be, but they're a little bit in control of that too. But I also think what a great way to let them reflect on what they learned. I think sometimes students need that extra step.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and something else that's been great is our rotations are five weeks long and the expectations I don't necessarily spell it out, but the expectations for the first few days or weeks of their wild ID, compared to the last few weeks, I as the preceptor, I kind of probe them a little more to you know in the first few weeks. Again, if they're coming at me with the hey, today I learned that vancomycin covers MRSA or something else. I might probe, not as deep, but later on I would very strategically ask them okay, what do you know about the data behind vancomycin in this topic? And I think they really surprised themselves with oh, I found this article and let me give you a quick synopsis.

Speaker 3:

Again, this is a text format. It's not meant to be a journal club, it's not meant to be stressful, but they're learning that. Oh, I can do a quick assessment of primary literature in the format. Again, that's not strictly regimented in a journal club format or a topic discussion format and I think that's been really beneficial. Again, starting the wild IDs, keeping it simple, if you will, and then really pushing their limits to the last five weeks to show how much they can grow and even give information in a text thread and how impactful those learning points can be.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm reflecting on that. In the classroom, before they got on appies, you come in and talk about assignments and one of the things you mentioned in that is, as you showed example, which I think is lovely of a text thread where a colleague of yours texted you basically for a very quick, you know, question about infectious disease and you were like, yep, this is sometimes the way it happens. It's not always in this formal setting, and so I think you're really modeling that. Yeah, I love, I love seeing that growth.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I really like how they really have to frame, how they're going to answer the question to meet the format of texting because I also don't like to read a book of information they have to keep it concise and I know, for for me personally, thinking about wild ID, I need a new acronym so that I could apply this to an internal medicine rotation.

Speaker 3:

Yeah hey, you can do anything wild, I am wild, I'm wild. Card with the great cardiology I'm just spit ball near you could be.

Speaker 2:

I'm wild, you know, for, like an internal medicine with some explanation, I think that's great. Yeah, my explanation, yeah, I love that. So I'm going to pivot over carry to you you have a different approach that you developed and it was. It came about differently, but also helps engage students and kind of these deeper conversations. So will you share a little bit about what you developed and how it works?

Speaker 4:

Absolutely so. I wanted to create, you know, something for pharmacy students that they could participate longitudinally and kind of enhance their internal medicine knowledge. They're only on rotation with me for five weeks, but they're on their APP is for the entire year. So how could I be selfish and have them continue to learn those internal medicine topics over time? And I was inspired by some of the physicians I work with had a kind of clinical question that they were asking their physicians each day and it was more based on like what was the diagnosis of a condition? And I really wanted to think about could I tailor something similar to that for pharmacy students?

Speaker 4:

I use the messaging platform what's up, and I'm sure you could use other platforms that would have texting type services. It is a free app that largest that has a large number of users that can be part of a group discussion and it again, the format is very similar to like a group text. And I had fourth year pharmacy students volunteer to be asked a clinical question each day on the weekdays of their rotations. I called it the daily dose, since they were going to get a daily dose of their clinical questions each day. I tried to ask a question on each day to the students that I felt would help them in their learning.

Speaker 2:

I think the fact that you had students, volunteers About you know that this is you know, because I think you could look at these ideas and say are we adding too much on top of an already full day? But but you have, you have students saying no, no, I want to be involved in this, I want to hear what you have to say and what these questions are, and I think that's really powerful.

Speaker 4:

I mean, the first time that I offered it, I had 14 students that volunteered and I didn't really have, you know, very specific expectations other than I wanted to make sure that they had their name in the text and that they knew it was going to be a professional type of a platform and I kind of made the rule that I would be the one that asked the question each day. But they were able to offer up a question that they wanted to ask as well, and I really felt like I thought it was important to make sure that they knew that this was a safe place to have discussion and answers, because this was a learning environment that I was trying to have for the students, and so it was okay to make mistake. I let them know that in advance and I also asked them just to participate and try their best to answer some of the questions.

Speaker 2:

So you will put a question out to the group and you said each day when they're on rotation, so you're not sending them things on weekends and holidays and all because none of us need to work. Then that's great if it's possible, but so you will send a question out and then anyone can respond. It's in the group text.

Speaker 4:

Right and I try to create the questions, kind of thinking about drug information, questions that I was receiving daily when I was rounding on the internal medicine team. So these were applicable questions. I would frame them in a case type format to kind of give them a scenario and then ask what they would do. And I noticed that to get more responses from students, if I frame the question in the way that I asked kind of each student to share one example or one response, I would allow more people to answer because sometimes one student you know within 20 minutes and he's sending the question out would provide a very comprehensive answer and no one else would respond because they already said everything that was expected. So you know, case based questions. I try to do some kind of you know what resources that they were using for particular questions or scenarios, a couple of calculations, but I really try to design it so that the question could have more than one answer.

Speaker 2:

I'm curious about. I love that you encouraged them to think of like if you have a question, you know you can submit those, or however that process worked. I'm curious to hear more about what kinds of things were they coming up with and their questions, you know, were they coming from rotations they were on or just things they were curious about?

Speaker 4:

Well, I did survey the students before and after the experience, just so that I could kind of gauge what they liked and didn't like.

Speaker 4:

And they didn't like when I assigned them something to read and then to talk about it, which isn't surprising because that was a lot of extra work. I did like the case based scenarios and sometimes people had kind of a difficult situation at their practice site that they wanted to share and get thoughts from all of us in the group, which was really helpful. I did offer a second cohort of students and I had 23 jump on, which was really neat, and I really think that this kind of format could really change in shape, where I had a lot of different students, but could you have residents engaged in the process, either asking the questions to students or being part of the discussion part, having pharmacist colleagues each kind of picking a day where they would maybe write the question and respond. These are all things I'm kind of considering for future endeavors to just try to get more engagement and more people involved so that we can learn things together.

Speaker 2:

I think that that sounds like such a wonderful way to expand something that was created with one purpose in mind, but obviously, like you mentioned, resident learners or even within a group of pharmacists who, just from a growing your own skill perspective, I could see so much value in folks who specialize in different areas or have different expertise, being able to kind of share something, and I could even see merging, carry your daily dose with the wild ID in some ways too, like thinking longitudinally for a residency year. It could be really cool that if, once a week, they shared something they learned in their experience, and then you would have this, basically this like informal portfolio in some ways that they're considering and thinking about and able to learn from each other as well.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, and that is one thing I noticed too that students did respond very highly when I did ask them what was one thing you learned this week? And then they got a lot of different topics and conversation. As a moderator I had one other student pharmacist serving as a moderator as well to just kind of encourage responses or give some reinforcement for discussion and thank you for sharing. I think that was very helpful to keep the information positive and kind of a good environment for discussions. But I will say that I was also concerned too about is there too many questions with doing it five days a week? They're on rotation. Are they gonna be on their phones doing the daily dose when they should be doing something else?

Speaker 4:

So I did kind of do some changes in my formatting. I did start kind of just doing like a Monday through Thursday. I also piloted out like a Monday, wednesday, friday so that there'd be longer gaps in time for them to respond. So question on Monday morning and then a new question on Wednesday morning. They got Monday all day Tuesday to have time to answer those questions. So I'm still trying to play around with what is the best timing of the questions and things like that. But I also wanted to be something that it's reinforcing daily and they're used to looking at it and they're not gonna forget about it either.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I could even see this rolling out if you are working in a place where there are multiple preceptors and multiple students across, even if it's just during your five week or month long rotation, but it's all the learners at the hospital and all of the preceptors. Again getting that kind of cross learning, where maybe I'm not on ID with Beth but I'm getting a little bit of a taste of what she's doing, even though I might be on a pediatric rotation.

Speaker 4:

Right and multidisciplinary is definitely something I wanted to explore as well, like would I invite medical students or other professionals onto the site that'd be interested in talking about medications as the focal point of these discussions? But interestingly, there were some students that really didn't respond to many of the questions, but they told me in person that they were learning a lot and that they were reading the responses. So even if they weren't actually typing things, they were seeing a question and seeing how the responses were being developed and hopefully thinking about how they would answer the question as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that's so lovely. I think one thing that strikes me similarities across both of your programs is that there is this ability to respond after they had time to think about it, so maybe not as on the spot as some of the other types of learning they're doing, and there's probably value in having lots of modalities on rotations, and so I think that could be really powerful For both of you. Tell me more about what did you learn in the implementation of your programs, or do you have advice? If someone else wanted to do something like this, that you're like this is what I would do next time.

Speaker 3:

I am in love with my wild ID for one thing and I think anybody could do it, whether you have one learner on service with you or multiple. I do think there are a few limitations but for me my usual size of rotation I tend to round with a large group of learners. I usually have two or three happy students and I may or may not have a PGY one and I may or may not have a PGY two as well. So we round deep in pharmacy on the ID consult service. But I think, keeping your number small enough, I would love it if I could incorporate a bunch of different happy students. In my hospital, you know, like Carrie has a lot of students who are able to respond. But things might get a little hectic if you're trying to do all of this with a text thread and especially if you have residents. I don't make my residents do wild IDs. I mostly encourage residents to respond to get more information out of the students. So I'm really utilizing that multi-layered approach and I think that works very well. Also, something else that has worked out very well is the fact that a lot of these wild IDs are able to be incorporated throughout the rest of the rotation. It's obviously easier for me to remember students' wild IDs because I'm familiar with infectious disease concepts. But in instances where you know student X has talked about a certain wild ID and then we've had an in-depth conversation about it via text, and then five days later student Y might have picked up a new patient and there's a certain concept that comes up, I'm able to brush off the cobwebs and say, hey, student X, your wild ID, talked about that and I'm trying to explain this concept. And a lot of times they're able to pull that out oh yeah, I remember that. And hey, if you need a link to that article that talks about that, I put the citation in there as well. And it's amazing how much they will teach each other and remember these concepts.

Speaker 3:

And again it comes back to the accountability. Yes, you can have accountability by asking your students hey, what did you look up for me yesterday or what were those questions that I had you answer? But with having it in this text format, they're able to tangibly go back and say, oh yeah, I can just search my text thread and get to the concept or get to the little blurb that they wrote about and find the citation. So it's a good record-keeping strategy and it's great for interdisciplinary learning, like I said, having the residents inquire and ask questions, and it's also just fun. So I'm kind of spoiling.

Speaker 3:

I hope none of my future API students are listening to this podcast, but I guess it's okay if they are. But one of my favorite things that I like to do on the very last day of rotation is I tell them that they have to answer a certain question for their final wild ID. They have to list for me their favorite bug, their favorite drug and their favorite disease state. And they can't just list those three things, they have to also tell their stories. Oh, I like this pathogen because it likes to do this, this and this. Oh, and I really like this drug because it's got some really crazy monitoring parameters like this, this and this, and they make it really fun. I also get to know them and then I also get to share my favorite bugs, drugs and disease states too. So it's a great way to end the rotation while also holding them accountable and telling them hey, learning can be fun.

Speaker 4:

I like that you said that too, because, thinking about the end of the rotation, of the end of this daily dose, I actually compiled all of the group discussions together as almost like a study guide for them to have as a learning tool to use in the future. To say, look at all these questions that you answered, and I think it was also helpful I had a student, also as a project at her provide some citations or additional information for the questions so that there was a reference kind of tied to the different clinical questions. That was definitely above and beyond the scope of what I was looking for, but this study guide now I actually occasionally go to the links that were included, or hey, I think I asked that as a question. What was that discussion about?

Speaker 2:

I love that. You know both of your examples. You know the beginning of this we started talking about. You know it's great when students can make these connections and they come in and they're curious and they can ask. You know, add to the conversations and you've really scaffold that experience for them. You know, beth, you were talking about your layered learning approach and you know helping us build confidence, but we've already talked about this and now it's come up again, so can you explain that? And you know that's, I think, probably a big confidence booster and connecting the dots between oh, that's right, I saw that. Here's a record of it, I think. I think all of those are, you know, powerful reasons to incorporate if you can, and something that helps engage students. And I think you know what my takeaways from your programs are is that they're easy to implement. These are not big startup. You know processes. It's easy for you to maintain. You're still in there to guide and direct, so if the answer gets way off course, you're still there to be like let's bring it over here.

Speaker 2:

And so I think those are all points. I take home Any other kind of last thoughts as we wrap up here.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I think you know you mentioned engagement of the learners, but it also engaged me as a preceptor to be able to be a part of this conversation with the students and walk them through these thought processes. I would encourage anyone to also think about partnering up with someone else, either a student or another coworker, that wants to do it with you, so that you have someone that you know. I had a student that worked with me on this and there was one time she was like Dr Vogler, are you going to post a question for today? Because it's almost five o'clock and you haven't posted yet. I was like, oh, thank you so much, I completely forgot to do that. So very helpful to kind of work with your students and, you know, also having another faculty to ask more questions or engage someone else and give them a responsibility I think also makes people have more buy-in to the process and a great training ground right?

Speaker 2:

I mean, beth, you talked about your residents asking them to provide feedback to the students, helping them learn about giving feedback, how to ask good questions of learners. Carrie, I think your point is really important too. It's maybe a great way to engage someone who isn't yet a preceptor but wants to be more involved with students or maybe is still learning, and so I think it's a great opportunity for folks to share what they're passionate about, without maybe taking on full responsibility for a student rotation or if they can't do that yet. So I think those are wonderful. Well, I want to thank you both for joining me today. I truly appreciate your openness and your willingness to share your experience and you know these really interesting ideas that you both developed. I hope that maybe this is helpful to others who are looking for new strategies to engage learners on rotation as well. So thank you very much.

Speaker 4:

Thank you so much, kate, for having us, and if anyone that's listening wants to hear more information, we would definitely be happy if you reached out to us. We'd be more than delighted to talk more about this.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I echo those sentiments. Thanks for having us too. It was a great time.

Speaker 1:

I'm super grateful to Kate, beth and Carrie for sharing these great ideas for engaging learners. None of these strategies are difficult and each helps achieve an important goal that we all share that our learners engage in and take responsibility for their own learning and that they can drive their own development. If you have other strategies that have worked well to engage learners in an experiential teaching environment, reach out to me at Kathy at ceimpactcom. I'd love to hear from you If you'd like more education on engaging learners and creating an effective teaching environment. There are a ton of resources on the CE Impact website. If you have access through your affiliate School of Pharmacy or Health System, don't forget to claim your CE for this episode and, as always, be sure to check out the full library of preceptor by design courses available for preceptors on the CE Impact website. If you're not sure if you have access, ask your experiential program director or residency program director so that you can access it all for free. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next time on Preceptor Practice.