Adaptive Precepting: Small Adjustments = Big Impact

In this episode, we tackle a whole range of issues – how to assess and meet our pharmacy residents and student pharmacists where they are, the challenges of maintaining guardrails while providing flexibility, and the responsibility we have as preceptors to stay abreast of best practices not only clinically, but as teachers and mentors so that we can make changes to our precepting practice when they are needed.

Guest, Kelly Erdos is the Residency Program Director at Banner Baywood Medical Center in Mesa, AZ. She shares several great examples of how small adjustments in our precepting practice can have a big impact on our learners and ourselves. Tune in to hear more!

Host
Kathy Schott, PhD
Vice President, Education & Operations
CEimpact

Guest
Kelly Erdos, PharmD, BCACP, CACP
Pharmacy Clinical Coordinator Supervisor
Residency Program Director
Banner Baywood Medical Center, Mesa, AZ

Get CE: CLICK HERE TO CPE CREDIT FOR THE COURSE!

CPE Information
 
Learning Objectives
At the end of this course, preceptors will be able to:

1. Describe the importance of adapting precepting strategies to meet pharmacy residents and student pharmacists where they are in their development 
2. Identify strategies to assess pharmacy resident or student pharmacist readiness for a given rotation experience

0.05 CEU/0.5 Hr
UAN: 0107-0000-24-171-H99-P
Initial release date: 05/01/2024
Expiration date: 05/01/2027
Additional CPE details can be found here.

The speakers have no relevant financial relationships with ineligible companies to disclose.
ChatGPT 3.5 (https://chat.openai.com) was utilized in the planning of this P2P episode.

This program has been:
Approved by the Minnesota Board of Pharmacy as education for Minnesota pharmacy preceptors.

Reviewed by the Texas Consortium on Experiential Programs and has been designated as preceptor education and training for Texas preceptors.

Follow CEimpact on Social Media:
LinkedIn
Instagram

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:18

Thank you. This episode engages insightful guests who share resources and ideas to help you improve your precepting practice, become a more effective teacher and mentor, and balance your work with these additional but important responsibilities challenges of maintaining guardrails while providing flexibility in our rotations, and the responsibility we have as preceptors to stay current on best practices, not only clinically but as teachers and mentors, so that we can make changes to our precepting when they're needed. My guest, kelly Erdos, is the residency program director at Banner Baywood Medical Center in Mesa, arizona. She shares several great examples of how small adjustments in our precepting can have a big impact on our learners. Tune in to hear more. Well, hello, kelly, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I'm super excited to chat with you about, I think, a really great topic that we have on the books for today. But before we get started, could you just take a minute and share a little bit about yourself and your practice?

Speaker 2: 1:29

Of course. Thank you so much for having me today, kathy. I'm excited to talk about this topic as well. So my name is Kelly Erdos. I am talking to you from Mesa, arizona.

Speaker 2: 1:39

I am actually an Arizona native, so I did my pharmacy training and undergraduate work at University of Arizona in Tucson and then, in 2010, when I graduated, I came up to Mesa and completed my PGY1 residency at Banner Baywood, and at that time I didn't really know which area I wanted to go into, if I wanted to do acute care or ambulatory care because I really had a strong passion for both of them and so I really could have gotten pulled in either direction. But I ended up going down the ambulatory care route, where I was for about the past 12 years, and that was just such an amazing experience Really really enjoyed my time in outpatient setting. And then, a few years ago, I was just ready for a change. I wanted to be more involved in our residency program, and so the clinical coordinator position at the hospital I work at became available, and I made that transition, and so that's where I'm at right now. I'm the clinical coordinator and residency program director for Banner Baywood Medical Center and Banner Heart Hospital in Mesa.

Speaker 1: 2:41

Yeah, awesome, yeah. So two big jobs that you're doing, but probably things that go hand in hand pretty well also they do yeah, yeah. Well, tell me a little bit about your own residency experience. I know we you know, when we were kind of prepping for our conversation today, we talked about it a little bit and it sounds like that experience really informed how you approach your current role as an RPD, so share a little bit about that.

Speaker 2: 3:07

I'd be happy to. Yeah, I think that it's interesting because when I started pharmacy school, I didn't even know what a residency program was. Everyone in my family are either entrepreneurs or not in the healthcare world, and so when I first heard about it, I was like are you crazy? No, I want to go out in the world.

Speaker 1: 3:24

I want to start working as a pharmacist when I graduate you know, start making some money and really just get out there.

Speaker 2: 3:31

And so that was my first response, kind of P1 year. And then, as I started to do my rotations, I quickly realized that all the rotations I love, you needed to have a residency to be able to have that type of position, and so it was interesting that I did a complete flip from when I entered pharmacy school to by the time I was, you know, in my fourth year. I definitely knew that was the path for me, and part of that was because of the amazing preceptors that I had during those rotations. And so when I talk to other pharmacists, I think it's interesting that people that are really passionate about teaching and education and mentorship, I think, have either two types of experiences. One is similar to mine, where they want to pay back to the profession.

Speaker 2: 4:18

I remember the director of pharmacy at this hospital, when I was interviewing, said the biggest thing is leave the profession of pharmacy better than you found it, and that really stuck with me, and so I had so many positive experiences that I really did want to be able to pay that back. So, even though I had such amazing and positive experiences, I have people that I work with who had the opposite. They may have had preceptors that were not as involved in their learning or didn't have the best rotations, and so their passion comes from wanting to be different, wanting to be the opposite of what they experienced as well, and so I always think that's kind of interesting, that really the ones with the most passion, I think, have one of those more extreme experiences when they're either in school or residency as well. But I was fortunate and just had such great mentorship and experiences during not just pharmacy school but my residency as well that that's something I hope to be for someone else. That's awesome. Yeah, and you're right.

Speaker 1: 5:21

I mean I think people have a whole range of experiences. Yeah, and you're right. I mean, I think people have a whole range of experiences and it's kind of what you I mean that informs you know how you go forward as a professional. So today we're talking about the importance of having preceptors who are willing to meet new pharmacy residents where they are and building flexibility into their rotation to accommodate you, to accommodate a range of learners. Talk a little bit about why you think that's so important now, even more so, maybe, than in the past.

Speaker 2: 5:54

I think it is such an important topic because what we want in a residency program is to train pharmacists that are going to be the type of people that we want to work with after the program and that are going to be able to work independently in a number of different situations, and so my personal philosophy is we're doing them a disservice if we're expecting them to adapt to every different preceptor and change all of their styles. It's really up to us, as the mentors, to be the one who changes our teaching style to help adapt to them, and so I think that that can be taken on several different layers. One of them is in terms of what type of learning style are they? That's something that when our residents come in, we have them, you know, if they're not aware of what type of learner that they are, take a quiz and kind of assess how they learn best. So, for me, if you tell me something, I'm not going to retain it. I need you to probably tell me and then watch me do it, and I'd rather even mess it up on my own the first time and then do it right the second time for it to really click, and so that is usually what my go-to teaching style is, but that doesn't work for everyone and they shouldn't have to adapt to me.

Speaker 2: 7:10

I think that knowing if someone does a lot better with having you know topic discussions versus hands-on, versus reviewing written material or watching videos that is something that's really easy for us as preceptors to do if we're thinking about it. It doesn't come naturally, though. It's not something that's really easy for us as preceptors to do if we're thinking about it. It doesn't come naturally, though. It's not something that, if you're not focusing on that, you are automatically going to do.

Speaker 1: 7:34

Yeah, yeah, and it's, it's. I often tap on my husband when I'm having conversations about education, because he's also a K-12 educator and you know we joke about how everybody thinks they're an expert at public education because they all went to K-12 public education or you know, many of them did. But we do tend to, you know, lean into the things that are comfortable for us and you know, and when you talk about learning styles, we teach the way we learn, because that's what makes sense to us. But, you know, having an openness to a really a much more diverse range of types of learners who are entering pharmacy school now and then then moving on to residency, you know we're really, I think, in this especially, maybe even in this post COVID world, you know, being called to be even more flexible, not understanding the experiences thatVID world. You know being called to be even more flexible, not understanding the experiences that they're. You know that they are coming to us with in their educational journey. So, yeah, oh, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 8:37

Oh, I was just going to say I think that's something that really probably brought it more to the forefront in the last four years is adapting to those different learners that may have gone to school for, you know, two, three, four years completely virtual, or may have had their rotations that were web-based versus in-person, and so definitely we're still seeing the the aftershock waves of that and how comfortable they are with different things like communication. Or at our facility we do a lot of presentations to the pharmacy team but also to different medical groups and at the system level. So when you haven't stood up in front of a crowd which is a huge fear for a lot of people, you know, regardless of COVID or not and then they're all of a sudden being thrown into that situation, we had to really work on things differently and adapt. So I think the COVID is a perfect example of being being flexible and meeting the learner where they are as well, right, Right.

Speaker 1: 9:37

I love too that you talk about how you know as as preceptors and that's whether we're, you know, working with residents or working with students that you know we part of our job is to help them develop their own professional practice right and their own professional presence, you know, as a practitioner, and that that really speaks more to the mentoring process than it does teaching a specific clinical skill or, you know, you know being really task oriented in your precepting, so I thought that that was a great, a great call out that they were not. Our goal isn't to make many knees. Our goal is to make competent practitioners who you know, have the room to develop their own professional approach. Really, can you share an example of a time when you personally successfully adapted your precepting style to accommodate a specific resident's learning style or specific need that they had?

Speaker 2: 10:35

Yeah, I think that's a really great, great question, so I'm trying to think of one more recently in my role of RPD, and it would probably be relating back to making sure that our residents get enough feedback, and so when I did my residency in 2010, a lot of the times, it was more the philosophy is no news is good news, and if you didn't hear something from your preceptor, it meant that you did a great job that day where the students and the residents that we're having now that is completely different right, they thrive off of that feedback and it's something that they want and that they need. And so one of the rotations that I precept is our practice management and pharmacy hospital administration, and so that is probably the thing that's been most difficult with me over the last few years is making sure that I'm getting enough feedback for that specific learner, and so one of the things that I changed is I used to just have a feedback Friday, you know, at the end of the week we wrap up. Here are the things that you have been really excelling at, here are things that I want to work out in the next week, and then also getting their perspective Really even before we start. That's usually how all of our feedback sessions start is, you know, tell me about how you think that you did this week and then adding on to that. And so what I found is that sometimes that's not enough, and so what I do is I try to have more check-ins in in between you know that week timeframe but then at the end of that first week, just asking open communication how was the feedback that I provided this week? Did you get enough or would you like to be having more?

Speaker 2: 12:12

And another thing that I have have adapted myself is really pointing out when we are giving feedback, because I think that in certain rotations you know you're constantly giving it, and then I have preceptors that will get an evaluation and it's marked by the resident did not receive enough feedback, and they're like but that's all we did. Every day I gave them feedback about how they're doing, and I think that it can sometimes get lost in everyday tasks, and so that's a technique that we use here, is to say, I want to give you some feedback on how rounds went today, or I want to give you some more specific feedback about your presentation, because just that simple phrase, which is so easy to do, right, it's not taking more time, it's not taking more effort, it's just pointing it out allows that learner to realize that's what's occurring, has made a big difference for us. Now I think that every program has more room to improve on that area, but if you have the open dialogue, at least you're able to get an idea of how you're doing in that learner's eyes.

Speaker 1: 13:18

Right, yeah, that's a great little adjustment that can have, I think, big impact and also take some of the pressure of having formal sit downs, you know, if you're bringing it out along the way, what a more effective and more efficient way to give feedback anyway.

Speaker 2: 13:32

So, yeah, and you can remember right because, yeah, by Friday it's harder to remember. Ok, what was that thing?

Speaker 2: 13:38

we were talking about on Tuesday or you know those types of things, whereas if it's in the moment you know which goes back to ASHPs one of the pillars of providing feedback is having it be specific and immediate, Because when you're in that moment it's so much easier and more tangible to have that aha moment for the learner as well, yeah, do you have a sense of how residents have responded to some of those changes that you've made?

Speaker 2: 14:04

Yeah, I think that if we look at a whole of kind of pulling our surveys which you're able to do, you know, with Pharmacademic at the end of the year we've definitely seen some positive trends, which is great, you know. It shows us that we're doing what we want and we're improving in those areas. But every year there's just still more room to improve. And that's the thing that's a little wild to me as well is we think that we're providing so much but the response is still more. You know, we want more.

Speaker 1: 14:34

Yeah, yeah, more yeah. And you know, of course, I grew up in a no news is good news and I was totally fine with that.

Speaker 1: 14:40

But I understand that that's not what learners want today. I understand that that's not what learners want today. As an RPD, as kind of a leader, how do you work with your preceptors to help them foster, you know, some of this flexibility and creating a supportive environment for learners? What are some strategies that you use, or maybe you even have a specific example of you know how you've kind of rallied the troops.

Speaker 2: 15:04

Yeah, I think one of the best things that we do is we make sure that everyone's on the same page, and so that means that the residents, the preceptors, myself, we are all hearing the same message, and so one of the things that we do during our pass off experience is I ensure that the residents and preceptors have their evaluations for that rotation completed before we all get together and meet, because, in my mind, there shouldn't be any surprises. If you're doing a great job, you should know that. If you need improvement, it shouldn't be a shock. You shouldn't be hearing that for the first time at the end of the rotation, and so if those evaluations aren't done, I have the preceptor or resident cancel our meeting and reschedule it. Another thing that we have is we have not only the current preceptor and resident along with myself, but we have the preceptor of the next rotation that they're going into, and so that way, everyone again is on the same page. And I bring up some of those points of you know this particular learner is having difficult in this area, and so we've been working on X, y and Z. That's something that I want you to work on them as you continue into your next rotation, and also just really reiterating that fact of that.

Speaker 2: 16:21

It's okay for them to be different. It's okay that it's not a mini me, that it's okay for them to be different. It's okay that it's not a mini me and that's not what we want. We want them to take all of our best traits as preceptors to develop their own clinical practice, and it's okay that that is going to look different from the preceptor that they're with. It's okay that it looks different than their co-residents, because that's not what we're after their co residents, because that's not what we're after. We're after having the residents find their unique style and elevating it to the highest level possible. That's our job as preceptors. It's not to clone ourselves, it's to really help them rise to their full potential.

Speaker 1: 16:57

Yeah, yeah, I love that and I thought that was a great, a great approach to have to have this continuity across each rotation for the resident, that we're all in this together and I'm asking you off to the next person who's going to take it from there. And you know it's, it's transparent, we're not hiding anything, you know. I think that that's, and maybe that's a luxury of the residency process that maybe we don't always have, you know, in the PharmD program, from an experiential education, you know, perspective. So I think that that's really a great strategy for, you know, really caring for the whole individual as part of the process.

Speaker 2: 17:50

Yeah, I think it also helps empower the resident also when we're having, maybe, a conversation in private where I say those things of you don't need to change your practice and approach. It should be really what is unique to you, because in health care a lot of times there's not one right answer, and so we want you to be able to explore the different options, options. And so when I say that in our meeting where the residents and the preceptors are present, I think it also helps the residents know that I've got their back, I'm supporting them, and it's not just something I'm saying to them behind closed doors. It's really again that open communication and clarity that everyone's on the same page. It's not a surprise to anyone, and so if there is a situation where a resident isn't or a preceptor isn't kind of holding up their part of the agreement too, that they know that's what the expectation is. So I think that it gives the residents just a little bit more support and comfort knowing that the expectation is clear for everyone including the preceptors, Right right.

Speaker 1: 18:41

How have the preceptors sort of responded to that approach positively.

Speaker 2: 18:45

I think overall we've had good success with that, especially the open communication part, because I think that that is just something that maybe we don't even think about the importance of until it's not there. And so really we're all in this. For the same reason, our preceptors are here because they want to be, they want to train you know the new pharmacist, the new generation, and so anything that's going to help facilitate that process is easy to get people on board with. And so, again, sometimes just those small changes where it might not necessarily be that much work or effort, it's just bringing it to the front of our mind so that we're aware of it and that we do it. That that's where I come in, it's just bringing it to the front of our, our mind so that we're aware of it and that we do it, that that's where I come in, that's where we have the discussions and reminders, or, if there is a gap, that I help try to fill that as well.

Speaker 1: 19:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. How do you shifting gears a little bit here? But how do you balance providing guidance, um, but still allowing autonomy for residents with varying levels of experience? And I think what I'm getting at here is, you know, maintaining some of that flexibility and how folks learn, but also having appropriate guardrails, you know, in place for patient safety and all those other things.

Speaker 2: 20:06

Yeah, With certain things I like to give examples. That's another kind of my learning process. My brain thinks in metaphors and examples.

Speaker 2: 20:13

sometimes so that's usually one of the things that I'll do when I'm talking to the residents in terms of that open communication as part of our practice management, as I tell them that there are certain things where the deadline is not in stone and there might be times where I'm asking you something and I'm gonna give you a deadline because you need that, you need to have an expectation of how long it's going to be, but that it's arbitrary and you might have the same deadline for something that you're doing for the system and the same deadline for something that you're doing for your preceptor on another rotation. And in those situations, if my deadline's flexible, by all means, I'll say we're going to bump that out or you know, we can adjust what that timeframe is, but there are going to be certain things that we're not able to adjust. So if we have a regional conference or a national conference, that we're doing a poster or presentation, that deadline is that deadline. And so, again, just being very clear of what we don't have room to adjust versus the things that we do. But it is hard, right. Where do you draw that line between being flexible and also having those strong boundaries, if you will in place? And I think it depends and again, I think that with that open communication and having really that trust and relationship, if you're able to do it that's really what I say If I'm able to do it, I or they know that. If you are able to that, you're going to try.

Speaker 2: 21:51

So it's a lot of balance and I think it's a lot of gray area which is life. I think that was one of the weirdest things going into healthcare is. I thought you were sick, you went into the hospital, the doctor told you the one thing that was wrong. You've got the one medication that fixed it and you went home and you know, anyone listening to that podcast knows how wrong that is and how many shades of gray it's not even just black, white and gray, right, it's a billion shades in between. And so I think that just being aware of that and acknowledging that gives you a lot more leeway with being able to adjust the things that you can, but then also having those those things that you're not able to adjust, be be respected as well, yeah, right, right.

Speaker 1: 22:36

I think one thing too that I hear from preceptors is that, you know, in this period, you know, of where we're being called on to be more cognizant of learning styles, more cognizant of more diverse student backgrounds as far as their preparation and things of that nature. They come, you know, at varying levels of skill and readiness probably is a way to say that that you know, handholding means more work and you know, I think what I'm hearing you say is we still have to have guardrails and there still has to be, you know, we still have to set up the learner to maintain some level of autonomy, because we't be a a handholding thing, and I think sometimes preceptors get a little stuck. Um, you know, on that, with with this, you know, new, new period of learners that we have.

Speaker 2: 23:40

And it's tricky because every year it resets right. So you have at the beginning of the year, all of a sudden you're switching from someone who is practicing 99% on their own and independently if the rotation and the residency has gone right to, then, from Friday to Monday, you have a brand new pharmacist that hasn't been licensed yet. And you have to. You know, you have to hold their hand. So part of that, I think, naturally works out a little bit in that you have that transition period from a student to a pharmacist that they're not licensed yet. So yes, you have your PharmD, but you're not quite licensed in that state when a residency begins, and so we have to oversee everything. But it can be tricky sometimes getting out of that mentality and saying, okay, we do need you to be more independent, because it's on both ends. Sometimes the residents are a little apprehensive to get out of the nest and then the preceptors are a little apprehensive to push them out too, and so it just goes back to the balance. But keeping the end in mind of where we're going and knowing that at the end of the year they are going to be practicing without someone looking behind their shoulder and double checking their work is important, but I also remind the residents that you are never alone.

Speaker 2: 24:58

Our smartest and best pharmacists at this hospital are the ones who ask for a second opinion. In the clinic that I was in, we had such a wealth of knowledge with the pharmacists that practiced there and you would have the most experienced pharmacists that had been there for 20 years saying, hey, have you guys seen this before? Or what would you do in that situation? And I think that's also important to model that, even though after residency, you are out quote unquote on your own, you're never alone and it's never a bad thing to bounce ideas around, get second opinions and be open to the things that you might not be as experienced with or have that knowledge, and I think that that's really great for residents and students to learn and to see in practice. Is these pharmacists that are so brilliant that are asking their coworkers that maybe haven't been a pharmacist as long, but that that's okay and that's the way that it should be, where there's always some type of support when you need it, right?

Speaker 1: 25:54

Right, that's a great point. You know when we talk about meeting new residents, or just residents and learners, where they are. Can you talk a little bit about some strategies that you encourage your preceptors to use to appropriately assess? You know where a resident is, either coming into the rotation or coming into the program. You know what are some practical strategies that you can use to understand where a learner is.

Speaker 2: 26:23

Yeah, that's a great question. We always have our residents fill out a kind of pre-informational survey that lets us know about their experiences. We have, you know what past rotations that they were in. We have them evaluate what they feel their strengths are and what they are really hoping to work on and gain more experience in throughout the year. But that's so different when it's on paper versus real life, and so a lot of times it's going to be on the rotation.

Speaker 2: 26:50

It's going to be, you know, having a safe environment to maybe test out certain knowledge base or experience.

Speaker 2: 26:59

So, for example, if our resident is starting in the ICU and has never gone on rounds before, the preceptor might look at the patients and see what the recommendations that the resident have are going to be and then role play with them.

Speaker 2: 27:12

You know say, okay, so when we see this patient, what are your recommendations going to be and how are you going to present them?

Speaker 2: 27:18

And so it's in a little bit safer environment for the first few times before you're saying it in front of the entire team. But I think that it is hands-on because sometimes too, you know, you can be great on paper and a great test taker, but we're in the real world, and a lot of times that real world example is not going to be the correct test answer, because not only does it have to be something that's going to work you know from the textbook it has to be something that's achievable for the patient as well, and so, if that is, you know availability of the medication, or if there's a cost barrier once they're discharged, or you know monitoring parameters that they might not be able to adhere to. Whatever it might be, the real world example or the real world answer and the textbook answer are not always the same, and so I think the only way you can really gauge someone is by getting them in there in a safe environment and having them take a stab at it, you know at the beginning.

Speaker 2: 28:15

So we do some of the footwork at the beginning, but I think a lot of it is really when they're on rotation scene, where they're at.

Speaker 1: 28:23

Yeah, yeah, no, that's great. How, how do you and your preceptors Um, how, how do you, um and your preceptors, what do you all do to stay up to date on, like, on best practices? And you know what's trending in pharmacy education and you know what do you, what tools do you use to make sure that you're adjusting um, you know your, your precepting practices, um in a, in a, in a way that's meaningful to you know, to every new group of learners.

Speaker 2: 28:50

I think that's such a great question because, again, it doesn't just happen right, it's not something that you are naturally going to keep up on, and so I think one of the biggest resources is continuing education, if that's through an outside company or if it's something that our health system also provides from you know, current preceptors and even our PGY2 residents develop those education programs for us to attend. That that is what is so important. I think that it's hard because you're balancing all these different things right. You have your career, you have your personal life. So for me, podcasts I really have started to enjoy that. You know, when I'm driving to work or getting ready in the morning that if it's something about precepting, like this podcast, I can listen to that. Or if it's something with drug updates or more clinical, you know there's a lot of great resources that you can have in the background and just really bettering yourself. I think that RPDs play a big role in that as well, for being able to keep the preceptors up to date on their academic and performance record, their APRs, and identifying those gaps of who might need that additional education and just really being aware of it.

Speaker 2: 30:07

But I think making the conscious effort is key, because otherwise it isn't just going to happen. And I think that also evaluating past resident experiences and results is important, because we sometimes have a tendency of thinking we did such a great job, but we want to see, well, okay, what did our learners think about that as well? And so what we try to do as well is not just do an exit interview with our residents, but ask them again, because a lot are retained within our healthcare system. Ask them again in two or three years, because sometimes, right after you finish residency, especially if you're staying on at that facility or even within the system, you might be a little scared to say certain things that you didn't like. Facility or even within the system, you might be a little scared to say certain things that you didn't like. And so, keeping that in mind as well, so that we just don't pat ourself on the back and say we're doing great, really digging deeper, because even if that's true and we're doing great, we can always be doing better.

Speaker 1: 31:02

Right, right, yeah, no, that's great. I think asking, asking for that feedback later is probably a really good idea, when you're a little bit more rooted in the system and feel safe to offer the real feedback.

Speaker 2: 31:15

Exactly. The answers are very different from last day of residency.

Speaker 1: 31:19

Oh, I'm sure Back in six to 12 months, I'm sure, oh gosh. Well, this has been a great conversation, Kelly. I really appreciate it. I've got several takeaways, but what is, just as a way to wrap up, what is one thing that preceptors who are listening today can do better right now? Something right now that they can do to better, you know, meet unique learners where they are and keep them engaged. That is such a good question.

Speaker 2: 31:55

It's so hard, right? I mean, what can you do at this moment? That's different. I think that one of the biggest things is to talk to your learner. Talk to your resident. If you think you're doing a great job with feedback and communication, ask them. And if the response is no, everything's great, say okay, well, I want you to give me one thing that you'd like me to try, different for next week. So it takes maybe a little bit of that anxiety away from the learner of saying something negative. I frequently will send evaluations back to our residents where it's. The question is you know, what would you do to improve this rotation? They say nothing. I'll reject it and then go right back to their inbox.

Speaker 1: 32:36

And I say no, you're lying.

Speaker 2: 32:39

You're lying. So I would say, check in with your learner. I think that's something that's so easy to do and it sounds so simple, right, right, but if you really think back, are you doing it? Um, just because it's easy doesn't mean that it's being being done. Um, and I know you said one, but my second would be, again, focusing on yourself and seeing where you have the opportunity to learn.

Speaker 2: 33:02

Is that in something where continuing education is going to be the key? Is it something that working maybe with a different preceptor is going to help? That's something that I, when I was a preceptor in the clinic downstairs that I worked at our ambulatory care clinic, I would sometimes shadow the other preceptors to see, well, how did you do it? Because we don't get that experience. And again, because we don't get that experience, and again, kind of, the more we get into our own practice, the more set we can become, and so sometimes it's nice to look at it through a fresh set of eyes and be able to reset. So, acknowledging that all of us have deficiencies in ourself and how are we going to work on that? And checking in with your resident and getting that direct feedback from them and really being open to the answer is what I think is something that all of us could do today to make a big impact on the type of preceptors that we are and the type of experience that we provide to our learners.

Speaker 1: 34:03

Yeah, that's a great. I think that's a great way to wrap it up and we have to be the drivers of that for ourselves, right? Nobody's regulating preceptor development maybe in a couple of states, but in general, we're doing this because we want to, and we need to, have a professional development approach to keeping those skills honed, just like we keep any other skill honed. So I think that's a great way to wrap things up. Well, thank you so much. This was a great conversation. I really appreciate it and I hope you'll come back and chat with me again.

Speaker 2: 34:33

I'd love to Thanks so much for the opportunity.

Speaker 1: 34:37

As always, I walk away with a ton of learning from these conversations. I'm extra grateful for her call to action at the end of the discussion. Engage your residents and students in a candid conversation about feedback. You, your residents and students in a candid conversation about feedback. You probably feel like that's all you're doing, but do they recognize it for what it is and are you calling it out as feedback? I also really appreciated her collaborative approach to how she helps a resident transition from rotation to rotation. Everyone the RPD, the incoming and outgoing preceptor and the resident are all in the room hearing the same things, with the same goal in mind how do we meet this resident where they are and take them to the next level?

Speaker 1: 35:13

If you have adapted your precepting practice in an effective way, reach out to me at kathy at ceimpactcom. I'd love to hear from you and if you'd like more education on this or related topics, check out the show notes for some links to more courses and podcasts. As always, be sure to check out the full library of preceptor by design courses available for preceptors on the CE Impact website and be sure to ask your experiential program director or your residency program director if you are a member, so that you can access it all for free. If you do have access, thank them and be sure to log on to CE Impact and claim your CE for this episode. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next time on Preceptive Practice.